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Intro  0:00  

Ladies and gentlemen, tonight’s spotlight shines on the rising stars of the legal world, where young firms, bold ideas, and smarter systems take center stage, standing tall at the intersection of law and leadership. He’s the digital strategist, the legal growth architect, the man with the mic, make some noise for your host, Will McCrieght. And today’s guest is proof that modern law isn’t about working more, it’s about working smarter. Welcome, Chris Earley. The game is changing. Let’s get you in it. This is Legal Currents with Will McCreight.

Will  0:40  

Welcome back to another episode of the Legal Currents Podcast. Today, we have a very special guest, my friend Chris Earley. Chris is the founder and CEO of Earley Law Group Injury Lawyers, headquartered out of Boston, also the author of Scaling the Wall, which he’s been generous to send me a copy of. something we’ll talk a little bit more about, that I really enjoyed, essentially a memoir where Chris walks you through his 30s and kind of shares his experiences growing scaling the firm, and how his childhood kind of impacted what got him there. Also, something I learned today is a DJ on the side for fun, which maybe we’ll talk a little bit about, but also one of the nicest, most kind people that I know, and I mean that, and so Chris, I’m really grateful that you’re joining us and excited to talk here.

Chris Earley  1:31  

I’m so grateful, a lot of respect for you and what you’re doing. I shared this with you a couple months ago. I was at a conference, you’re at a conference, and someone said to me, Yeah, that guy will he has really good aura. And I was like, he does, like, he has a good aura. And so I appreciate you and your good aura, because you have good energy. So being here with you today is, you know, gives me energy lights me up. So I appreciate it.

Will  1:58  

I appreciate that. That’s, I think I told you response to that, like, I think that’s my favorite compliment that I’ve ever.

Chris Earley  2:05  

Much better than that. That’s pretty good. 

Will  2:07  

And I would say the same, I would say the same about I would say the same about you. So I guess, Chris, before we jump into specifics, you know, I want you to kind of tell people, you know, a little bit of your story, because you have a pretty unique story and how you kind of ended up starting your firm.

Chris Earley  2:24  

It’s a long story, but it’s an unconventional story of sort of early challenges out of the gate. But I also had a lot of opportunities, so I try to take advantage of the opportunities that I was given. And you know, anyone who knows me, I’m just kind of put my head down. I work hard. Too, too dumb to quit sometimes. And, you know, as you know, you know, supporting law firms are scaling. It’s a hard game that we’re playing here. It’s super challenging. So I’m okay with turbulence, uncertainty, and risk. And I think that’s stems from, you know, from the early years as I was growing up and coming up. But they say that we’re generally as adults, sort of just big kids, right? We sort of imprint on us from a young age, and we sort of carry that stuff. So I was carrying some negative stuff in my 30s that my wife put a mirror up and said, Hey, dude, like, you gotta get this writer. You’re gonna lose me. You’re gonna lose your family. And so I had to figure some stuff out quickly through a lot of ugly work, and that’s why I wrote the book. The memoir is just to, um, hopefully help one person who identifies a struggle, and that there’s a lot of hope and opportunity for those who will, you know, do the work.

Will  3:34  

Yeah, and, you know, I was telling you this before we started recording. But, you know, not only is it a cool story, but it’s very well written, like very great book. It’s something I’ve actually enjoyed as I’ve been reading it. And you have a very interesting story as far as how you started out with your firm. Can you talk about what that journey looked like, specific to you?

Chris Earley  3:54  

 100%. So I came into law school 2004 about 85 years ago, and the job market wasn’t strong. I didn’t go to a top flight, top features law school. I edit network in law school, and I came out without like anything at all, to be honest. I had no money, just heavy debt, no connections. And I met an older lawyer, much significantly older, and we had this very loose quasi partnership. I wasn’t making any money. So that was just a few months, excuse me. And then at that point, I just, we agreed to part, like gentlemen. I just hung a shingle in Boston, hyper competitive. This is the days of, you know, Yellow Pages, right? They were on their way out, but they were still relevant. But just hustling, get cases, and I just started, and I gotta be honest, for like, probably 15 years, it wasn’t a business. It was like I was a hack. I was just like, grinding, hustling, not having good no metrics, no KPIs. I didn’t know what that was. And then I started to scale. When the pandemic started, when everyone was pulling back in. I like risk. I’m okay. I invite risk. I think risk is where the good things happen if you take calculated, smart risk, so leaned in, grew started going to conferences, started hiring a bunch, and then we’ve grown quite a bit. But that book is one of my biggest achievements. Like, you know, you know that that lights me up a lot more than settling a significant case like that to me, is like my story, and that’s why it hits me very strongly when you talk about my story, because it’s it’s so humbling you know, for for you to say those words about my story, because it’s like, just super grateful for everything you know that I’ve been given. So that’s my two writer downers to the audience that I can share, invite risk, be okay with risk, and do the ugly work wherever that is. If you’re scaling a law firm, you’re gonna have to do ugly work. If you’re saying that working on your mental health, that’s ugly work. You have to do those hard things in order to break through and have the life that you’re entitled to, that you deserve. That’s who I’m really keen on, is hopefully supporting, helping other lawyers, non lawyers, in any way, small way I can. I’m no expert, but yeah, I’m expert in my story, and I like to be open and share about it.

Will  6:10  

It’s a story that a lot of people can learn from, something I think that’s very cool, right, especially over the past couple of years. To your point, I feel like every time I am at a Mastermind, a conference, I feel like there’s a great chance that I’m going to run into Chris. It’s not an easy thing to take that time away from your firm, to go to a Mastermind, to go to a conference. I think a lot of that holds people back from attending these things. And so I’m curious to hear some of your thoughts on, you know. Could you tell a little bit, tell a little, tell people a little bit about, you know, what a mastermind is, maybe, if they’ve never been to one, and what role that has played in your journey.

Chris  6:51  

Well, happy to I always love seeing you those events, because we always have a good time. Because you’re a consummate learner, and so I am too. That’s how we go to go to these things. So we’re always learning. We’re forever learning. So Mastermind is a nice collection of people who are geeking out, right? It’s a nice, small, intimate room of people who are sharing ideas being vulnerable, right? I feel like the most successful Mastermind participants are those who are vulnerable and leave it all out. There’s no There’s no pride, or, you know, bragging. It’s just like I got problems. These are my problems, and you come up with some solutions. But that’s the easy part. The hard part is, like doing the work. So I try, I took this from a mentor of mine. I try to do the work on the plane, like, Okay, here’s what I’m going to do, when I’m going to get it done. Who’s going to who I’m going to ask to get those things done? Right because we get all these ideas. But you know someone you know quite well. Seth Price said once, nothing good happens in front of a computer. Like, you can’t grow in front of a computer. You can’t meet people in front of a computer. You can’t get inspired. So, like, when you you got to get out of your own way. And, like, that’s for me what, what I had trouble doing. I got a way started going to conferences. Hired good people, so they took care of the handling the cases while I’m away. But I think you gotta, like, get on airplanes. You have to get away sometimes to think, to be challenged, to grow. I just talked to a guy this morning from Florida, Chad Robinson. He and I met at that John Fisher Mastermind, New York City this past May. I wouldnt have met him. Now we have a connection. And so I just sent him my book today. It’s like little things like that, like we create these relationships and try to, you know, foster relationships. But yeah, big fan of masterminds, well, I think they’re mass.

Will  8:35  

Yeah. I think that part of the reason why they fit so well for you in particular, is you are someone who is very open to sharing, right, what you’ve learned, and those you know are the things that separate those experiences, the good ones, from the great ones. Not everybody has that same mindset as you right? What does it mean to you to like share things? How has that you know played a role in your growth?

Chris  9:00  

It’s everything you have to share. A mutual friend of ours, Craig Goldenfar down in Florida, he’s always sharing. He’s like a serial sharer, and look how successful he is. So you really do. I think your life gets better when you share, because you get more fulfillment and you get more depth to your experience when you’re helping people along. And so yeah, I don’t, I don’t have a lot of expertise, but I share what I little. I do know and like, people appreciate that. I think the givers do truly win. Like, there’s a lot of selfishness in the law, outside the law, wherever. But like, it took me a long time to figure this out. You know, you’re way ahead of when I was in my you know, when I was your age, like I didn’t have half things figured out that you have to figure out. You have figured out. So I envy you for getting it so early in the game, you know, seriously, and you’re getting on, you’re going to these big rooms, you know, and you belong most people are double your agent room, but you belong there. So you’re giving knowledge. I’ve seen you stand up, and you’re sharing stuff. You’ve sent me, you’ve emailed me. Information, not looking for anything in return, you’re a giver. That’s why you’re you’re winning, right? I think the givers do, do win, whatever winning looks like. I think that’s what’s so crucial. I like to educate lawyers with little that I know, to share with them, to open up to them, and I, I try to, that’s why, really, I wrote the book, is to help other people, right? I think that’s where the good stuff is, helping people, serving people.

Will  10:25  

Yeah, I really appreciate that. I also think you’re selling yourself short as far as capabilities are concerned. Something that I feel very strongly about is the idea of increasing your surface area for luck. That’s something where I feel like, you know, there’s luck involved in everything in life, right? But what we can control is to make our surface area for that luck to land, you know, on us greater. I want to hear your thoughts, you know, on that idea, because I think that a lot of going to Masterminds and a lot of going to conferences and putting yourself out there and writing your book and making the connections is, whether intentionally or not you’re increasing your surface area, for good things to happen to you. How do you relate to something like that?

Speaker 2  11:11  

A guy I’ve taken a lot from is John Morgan, you know, I’ve had lunch with him. He’s been on my podcast, and he mentioned once, lottery balls. Like, we want to have lottery balls, like, you know, we could. We could go to an event like a Mastermind, or even like the local bar association meeting, where we don’t have to we could say, yeah, why bother? Why bother? Is that you could, you could create a connection that could change your entire life, your family’s life, for generations. You never freaking know what you may find. So I really think about that lottery ball thing. So I think that’s why you have to be out and about creating action and doing things each day to create more lottery balls for you, you know. But I think all this like stuff is pretty simple. You just have to, like, do it for a long period of time. If you’re willing to, like, put your head down and do that stuff long period of time. I can speak to the fact that you see growth. People start to see and you start to get, you get a little bit of a little bit of notice, right people, but you got to, like, keep, you know, doing the work, doing the LinkedIn stuff, going to the events, posting on social, serving, helping people. I think that’s where the good stuff lies.

Will  12:19  

Yeah, I agree. And it reminds me of another quote that I like to to try and remind myself of, which is, you know, it’s it’s simple, but it’s not easy, right? It’s simple what we’re talking about, but it is not an easy thing to do day in, day out. You talked about LinkedIn there, which is something that you and I had a conversation about out in New York a couple months ago. You know, for anyone who doesn’t connect with Chris on LinkedIn, I highly recommend you do so, because he posts literally every single day. You know, I guess two part two-part question here, right? You know, one, what gave you the idea to do that? And then the second one, you know, for maybe a more practical standpoint, you know, have you seen any you know growth or you know value from a firm standpoint in doing so?

Chris  13:05  

Yes, so I started doing a few years ago, and I think today it’s gotten a little more saturated, which I’m happy to see there’s more people. Most of my connections are lawyers, right? Or people related to legal space, right? And so I started doing it probably three, three and a half years ago, and it was kind of an experiment, and I and I just started posting, and I did I see with me and with other people, like, you don’t get any traction when you first start posting. Like, you get one like, get one like for months now. Just a reminder to everyone, you know you can’t put likes in the bank. So like, okay, good. I gotta like the likes. So what you gotta keep showing up, be social to social platform, have with people be a social creature. And so I kept doing it, and it just sort of as a flywheel of action that continues. It helps us stay in context. I may see you every once on mastermind, but like, see your posts on LinkedIn, it’s like, oh yeah. Well, let’s reset this week. That’s what. That’s what we just had on this podcast, like, it’s a connection, so start doing it. And sometimes two posts a week, and it’s a lot of work. It’s ugly. That’s the theme of this. Calls ugly work, right? It’s not like glamorous, like I got it, I got two kids and a wife. I gotta fit in that time. But I like to pre schedule my posts in advance. I like to batch them so they get out the door, if you will. And so I literally haven’t missed a day, which is probably a kind of a weird thing, but I don’t want to stop the rhythm, that rhythm. I can’t second party question. I can’t say with precision what it’s done, but I can tell you with certainty it works because you keep popping up. I’ll just share stuff. I just shared like a video that I did for on time management to a bar association a few years ago because I didn’t really know what to write that day. I was like, I’ll just share this, right? Like, you can’t go wrong sharing some asset that’s going to help people out. And I lean into vulnerability. I will. You know, Michelle was on Will’s podcast station. You know, connect with me if you’re not already connected with him, right? Check out his podcast. Just, you know, shout you out, shout other people out, and then people like authenticity. It’s kind of all I know is to be myself, right? And so it’s kind of easy, but I see more people, people coming on, and it’s, it’s popping the the numbers I see on LinkedIn. But I think the best day to day, the best day to  start is today. If you’re going to get going, it’s just getting busier and busier. What was it? Totally blue ocean is getting a little little red, or a little, you know, more congested. So I think you need to make sure that you’re optimizing it fully grid opportunity, right? For SEO, there’s

Will  15:37  

The more information you can put out there, the better, right? And especially in an authentic way, in your own voice, you know, build that that expertise, I think a common misconception that a lot of people think of is social as a blanket right is only for finding people who have cases. But I think people often overlook that the attorneys who might be able to refer you a case are on there as well. And if you can show that expertise that also is worth, is worth something, and in a similar sense, you know, I think part of the reason why people you know are afraid to get on a social platform like that is maybe a fear of rejection, which reminds me of a conversation we had on LinkedIn maybe a month or two ago where we talked about that kind of fear of rejection, and I brought up something that I think we, we both enjoyed, called the the idea of rejection therapy. I don’t know if you recall, 

Chris Earley  16:27  

Yeah. yes.

Will  16:30  

Essentially, for anyone listening who might not be familiar, right, what rejection therapy is is it is a challenge, or just a concept where you know the goal is to try and hear the word no, right? And there’s an element of desensitizing yourself to hearing the word no, but also what a lot of people take away when implementing this is that they hear the word yes way more than they thought that they would. And so I wanted to ask you, what you know has the word no? What role has that word played in your career, and how do you try and incorporate, you know, that idea into your life, if at all.

Chris  17:06  

I love that. That’s so smart. I hope everyone’s taking notes on that, because that’s such a smart thing that a lot of people, I don’t think, are willing to embrace enough right to be rejected. Like I…Will, I don’t care. Like I ask for things. You need to be a front seat driver, as opposed to a back seat pastor. Like, I will ask for things because I have a mandate, like, I have a family to feed, so I have to go out and get after it. But then it gets easier to ask for things, and then it gets easier for people to say yes. If you’ve built up, you know, your career right to certain points, like, okay. Like, this guy really, okay, we’ll say yes to him on that right? So I’m a big believer in acting like you belong. Even, you know, if someone’s starting out in their career, mid career, like, just act like you belong in the world will welcome you to the table with open arms. Just, you know, acting as if you belong, you’re not being scared. But I think you have to be willing to to get rejected, like, I don’t care, you know, like, I I’m okay with that, because, like you said, it’s, it’s just a scientific fact, you’re gonna get more yeses than nos, but we assume there’s a no, so probably gonna get nos if we’re assuming no so let’s assume positive outcomes here, assuming that those doors are opening. I’m a big believer in mindset, you know, you and I could talk for 24 hours about mindset alone. Like, that’s all that’s this is our success is dictated by what’s between our ears. Like, that’s it, that’s it, that’s what we’re attracting. I’m really become quite into manifesting, manifesting things, things like that. So you get what you attract, right? If you’re a negative thinker, you’re going to attract live negative, positive, you know, track some positive stuff to your life. So think believer in rejection. I love it. I agree.

Will  18:50  

If you don’t ask the the answer is certainly going to be no. You know, you might ask 10 things that you think are crazy. Ask, and you might hear the the word no nine times, but, you know, you hear yes once, and that’s something that you would have gotten right, and that applies to all kinds of things. You know, the videos out there, I would encourage people to, like, check those out if they’re resonating with this topic. You know, they’re oftentimes, like, kind of funny, like, or, you know, not necessarily the most serious of things. Asking, you know, Hey, can I go back behind the counter and make my own burger? Can you, you know, teach me how to do X, Y, Z, but, you know, oftentimes it could be something like, Hey, can I even go backstage at this concert? And, you know, all of a sudden you hear the word yes. And so learning how to do that, I think that’s a skill that I try and get better at myself, because if you don’t ask these things, you know that answer is going to be no regardless. And that’s something that I feel very passionate about, and I know you do as well, that mindset idea, something I wanted to ask you. You know, in your book, you talk about how you know that childhood trauma does not just vanish when you achieve success, right? And I wanted to ask you, you know, is there anything that you still hear that younger self kind of whispering in these high-pressure moments, right? As an attorney, and if so, what,

Chris Earley  20:14  

I think a lot of I still have anger, and that’s why I meditate obsessively, because I have to work on this stuff. I talked about that in the book meditation. Book meditation journaling. I it just, you know, we are we said it before, like we sort of are imprinted with things early on, and that some things are good, some are not good. So I’ve had to work on anger, because I witnessed a lot of anger, and anger and a law license can kind of be a good thing, because it’s like an angry lawyer can kind of like be effective sometimes, to an extent, then you could really cross line to be a total, total jerk. And that’s just not good for career development or good relationships. So I have to do daily work, you know, of staying right, seeing mentally sharp and not getting, you know, I used to be so angry, man, like insane, just so because I saw so much anger, and anger can really bring you down, and your ability. So I didn’t want it. I didn’t want to get my own way. I want to keep getting my own way. So just had to do went to therapy, numerous therapists, until I found one that stuck. Um, that’s, that was the hence the title for the book, skill on the wall. So just doing the work, right? Because, to me, working should serve our life, not the other way around, right? I can only speak. You know, in the legal profession, a lot of lawyers are, you know, they’re servants their practice. It’s like just serving where I think the practice should serve you and facilitate what you want. So I think getting mentally clear on what we’re trying to do here and what we’re trying to get to is very helpful. And I think it’s bigger and better to help others as well in their journey where some good stuff lies.

Will  21:54  

Yeah, you know, I think a lot of the people listening to this can probably resonate with with the idea of, like, hey, you know, maybe they started their own firm to, you know, to control that aspect of their lives, right? Allow work to work for your life, to your point, which I love, that idea, on that idea of therapy, right? I’m curious. You mentioned that was a long process, and still is an ongoing process. You know, is there a moment that sticks out to you where, you know, you felt something clicked in that process, or was it kind of a slow burn?

Chris Earley  22:26  

Of therapy? 

Will  22:27  

Yeah.

Chris Earley  22:28  

Yeah, I did, and that was sort of where I started, like, a new life of like, letting go of shame and pain and anger and releasing that right? And that’s why it talks about a lot towards the end of the book, is just like getting lighter. The book was going to be called, like Journey to light or something like that. Even naming the book was a challenge, but something like Journey to light or light or something like that, a theme like that, because when we’re carrying all this heavy anger, resentment, shame, rage, sometimes that can weighs us down. And what happens our kids pick up on that? And then what’s going to happen their kids are going to get pick up on this generational stuff. I did everything I could. I think I my big success was stopping generational trauma, so my kids have a good, healthy home and a happy home full of opportunities outside. So I’m a big fan of I’m obsessed with getting as clear as you can in your head and dealing with all the negative stuff we have to deal with, because it’s hard as hell. It’s a constant journey of working through stuff. But meditation, for me, has, has been, has been massive. Do you do you meditate at all? Or no? Do you Do you do anything that kind of like centers you or?

Will  23:42  

I find a lot of meditation through exercise, whether it be like working out, you know what? I think that I probably get the closest to meditation I picked up running a couple years ago, actually, as a tool where, you know, I found myself in all these cool cities and conferences and Masterminds and stuff, and I realized I had no time to explore them a lot of the time. And so I thought, hey, what better way to explore the city than going for runs and stuff like that? And that’s something I’ve really enjoyed. And on occasion, I will go for runs with no music, no nothing. And it reminds me of like, when people have that idea of, like, you know, clarity, like in the showers, and I feel a lot of that on my runs.

Chris 24:29  

I love that because you’re quieting the thoughts, and you’re just sort of, like, in the zone of this deep state, I believe in that. So, yeah, whatever it is, running, meditation, freaking, chess, frisbee, whatever, date right to, like, center, you that’s, that’s, like, that’s, that’s a nice spot to be in.

Will  24:47  

Yeah, yeah, I’ll tell you. You know, something that I’ve started doing is the first thing I wake up, I’ll check my calendar for the day, I’ll see, like, what my conversations are going to be, and then I’ll just take that with me. You know, on my run, and I’ll just have that in my mind. And sometimes, you know, you find these moments of clarity where it’s like, All right, we’re gonna talk about this, this, this season. I would never have been able to sit down and truly think through.

Chris  25:11  

100% I’m with you. It’s a beautiful thing. You’re like, wow, I didn’t think of that.

Will  25:19  

Yeah, something that I thought was pretty cool about you as well. Obviously, you coach youth sports, right? And have done some time doing that in the past. I feel very strongly that playing sports growing up taught me a lot of the lessons that have been most important in my life outside of school and working in youth sports, right? You have the ability not just to, you know, shape some of these kids help provide those lessons, but I would imagine learn some lessons, maybe from them as well. You know, is that true? 

Chris Earley  25:47  

Yeah. 

Will  25:48  

Have you learned anything, even from the kids or or lessons that you’ve kind of learned over the past, you know, decade or so coaching some of these youth sports?

Chris  25:55  

Yeah, so I was not a very good athlete. Just curious, what did you play when you’re when you’re coming up.

Will  26:00  

I did soccer in college, actually at American University.

Chris  26:06  

Yeah, good for you, yeah, my daughter currently,

Will  26:09  

Currently, a lot of C0-Ed basketball, men’s league basketball.

Chris Earley  26:12  

Good, good. Well, you’re staying active, that’s crucial. So I’m not a great athlete. I tried. I love sports, but I was a good athlete. But I want to recommend a book that’s related to this. It’s called a Two Minute Manager, because I was someone much older than me, suggested I read it before I started coaching in sports. And it’s about how to like. It applies to anything sports you know work, just like how to like, connect with people who are trying to help grow, say in a playing field or in a boardroom, wherever the two minute manager. Really quick book. It’s a like, it’s called, like, an allegory, sort of like a story that proves that helps make a point. So I’m a big believer in, like, healthy role modeling, because I didn’t see a lot of that. I saw a lot of sort of dysfunction junction as a kid. And so I know how important is for kids to have a good role model, or, you know, coaches as role models. So I’m all about what I did. My kids are older. They’ve phased me out of coaching. It’s really good thing. I’m step decide they need better, better coaches. I don’t really care about, like, the wins and losses. I’m just like, Are you being a teammate? You know, I’ve seen parents will almost have fist fights on baseball fields like, all the time. And I’m like, Are you the kids are watching you right now? But I don’t understand, like, I love to compete in law and work and like, I will just, you know, compete so hard, but like, let kids be kids, you know. And I just, I love coaching. I cherish it. But the biggest reason I did coaching well, so my kids could look at that in a positive light. Say, oh, you know, Dad’s, you know, coaching, and I’m proud of him. I’m happy he did that. So that was my whole intention.

Will  27:57  

That’s awesome. Yeah, I think that losing probably gives more lessons when you’re a kid than winning does, to be honest, I think there’s something to be said for being, you know, on teams that are really good. I think there’s something for being on teams that are really bad, yeah, as well, and learn how to how to deal with that. It’s life, yeah, yeah. I want to shift back to something we’ve talked about, which is kind of like that relationship currency, right? And what I see in the digital world is, you know, that relationship currency, one way to almost translate that into, you know, financial currency, or whatever you want to call it, is the idea of reviews, right? So you have almost 1000 reviews across your Google business profiles, that is a very hard thing to obtain. And I’ll tell you, you know, as a compliment, right? I speak with firms all the time who will look at a profile like you have, you know, with like, 900 reviews all these things, and they’ll say, There’s no way, right? Like that, fake reviews there, whatever. Often times they are, but people sell themselves short on what they’re capable of. Clearly, that has been an emphasis and an effort on your end. How has that been like? What’s that journey looked like for you?

Chris  29:07  

I’m obsessed with reviews well, and you said it, well, they’re hard as hell. If everyone gave me a review, I’d have 10,000 because we, you know, we ask, you know, everybody you know, within our sort of, you know, I call the extended family to leave a review, and it’s hard as hell, but I am maniacal about reviews. So just as an example, this, hopefully this provides value to listener. I think whatever number we’re at the end of January, January, 1 of this year, I went to reach 1000 by the end of the year. So I know we need 22.4 reviews or whatever to get there. So my point is, like, you need, whether it’s reviews or whatever you’re trying to accomplish, either in a law firm or in life, you need a goal and like, how you gonna get there? So that’s like, Okay, I know every week I gotta get like, four review basically one a day, we’re gonna be okay. So I’m a big believer in the compounding effect of things like reviews, because one one good review could lead to five really good cases like you just never know. But I’m obsessed. I take it really seriously responding to reviews as quickly as possible. I’m just all about it, because I see what it does to move a law firm forward. And you know when I see a firm and they just, they’re not getting views. It’s like, well, you’re almost like, too late, like, because it’s just, it’s been like this for years, right? I mean, you, you know, you know, you’re such an insider this, in this, you know, the digital industry, I’m sure you kind of bang your head against the wall. It’s like, why are you not getting reviews? I’m telling you how to get cases, and you’re not doing that. But, like, it’s, this is, again, the ugly kind of simple but hard work. Just make sure your staff knows like your jobs as reviews. And if you’re not doing that, you’re not doing your job, you’re not helping us grow. So I try to educate and saturate into my team like that. That’s why I’m obsessed about reviews. Is because they help us. They help us thrive and grow. It creates opportunities. The Law Firm creates promotions, raises, we all win. But this is social proof. It’s not just review, it’s social proof. And you have, if you have overwhelming social proof, it’s going to be like, Okay, maybe early, maybe those guys are pretty good. I’ll give them a call, right? But then, once they call, what are we doing? Are we, like, giving a rock star experience, or we is a call going to a call tree, you know, like stuff like that. Like, we got to get all these things right, which is super challenging.

Will  31:26  

Yeah.

Chris Earley  31:28  

I love talking about reviews. It’s crucial, man.

Will  31:31  

I love two things that you said there. First is, like, set that goal. That’s something that we try and emphasize. It’s one thing to say, hey, get more right. It’s another thing to say, here’s where we need to be. And then you know that social proof, we see that translate from a conversion standpoint. And so that’s also doing two things, right, like that, visibility only matters if you can convert upon it. We’ve seen those review counts to be crucial in that sense. But also, you know, right? If, let’s say, you know, we’re looking at trying to help a firm grow into a certain market. If we see that there’s firms there who have 800 900 1000 reviews, that also is doing a lot to protect yourself from other people coming into your market. 20 reviews, you might be dominating that market. That is not a large barrier for someone else to to prevent them from stepping into and surpassing that, especially in the day where we have some of these firms right, who kind of machine them out. So I think that’s really cool, and that’s what I tell people, is usually the best thing that they can do themselves through just hard work to help, you know, scale things, and it translates to AI, search, all these other methods. Yeah. 

Chris Earley  32:47  

Well one thing we just talked about earlier is, like, saying no. Like, what’s worse, if I could take, you know, I’m not going to leave your review. Nobody is going to say, I’m not going to leave a review. It almost never happens. Now they’ll, they always say yes, but what’s your follow up process, right? Are you? Are you, like, pesty where you like, follow up and say, Hey, will, like, you never left there just a nice way, like, hey, Will, did you were able to leave that review? Oh, sorry, crazy. I’ll get, you know, and I’m a big fan of commitment, so I ask you, like, Hey, will you know, would you leave me your view and you commit that? It’s almost like we like to abide by our agreements in life, like it makes us feel good to comply with that. And so I think about a book. I think it’s escaping me right now, but anyway, talks about studies were done, so people need a reason to leave a review. I can’t just say, Will would you leave a review? Please listen, well, I’m trying to get to 1000 reviews. These reviews help us reach more members of the community. Would you please leave a review? The why I’ve learned is really important than just, hey, will you know you got five minutes review like that to me, and I taught that to my team. Once I learned that myself, and that’s been massive, but you need to be constantly educating your team, because you, you, I can only get some reviews myself. You can only get some reviews yourself. You need people helping you to get those. But, yeah, I think it’s low hanging fruit. You gotta get those things. It’s so crucial.

Will  34:05  

What is your follow up process?

Chris Earley  34:10  

I am trying to So back in the day, I was the one generating most of them. Now I can’t get them all myself, so I’m just so smart. That’s my team. So I little things like, well, first of all, we’re gonna, we’re gonna send you a text, like, while we’re on the phone. Hey, will would you leave me review? Because we’re trying to get 1000 Oh, sure, Chris, I’m gonna text you while we’re on the phone. Can you get that link? And we have a URL. It’s called, just see the reviews.com so that people, I love it. It just drives them right there. So just gotta hit the stars. There’s no work. There’s no friction or barriers here. But and then one little tip I want to, I want to throw out there that has been effective to reduce the need to follow because people are leaving their view. I’ll send a message like, Hey, John, it was really good talking with you, because I talk with people all the time. You know, I talk i. Lawyers. And you know, whoever it is that I’m asked for review, can I selfishly ask you for review, something like that, and that tends to like work. I don’t know why. Like, Hey, can I very selfishly ask because I’m like, I don’t know. Just that’s ineffective.

Will  35:17  

I love it. You kill it with that, right? Like, I mentioned that that is a very much to your credit number, right? That is something that a lot of people you know, can only dream of getting there, but it’s done through that hard work, the repetitions, like even learning, hey, this is get people more likely to leave review, right? Like that. In and of itself, shows that you’ve been doing it for a really long time.

Chris Earley  35:38  

And the conversion thing you said, is super, super spot on it, yeah, it helps, if you’re, you know, converting that support. So, so this wheel, you know, the the marketing is helping intake. Intake is helping set up cases. It creates opportunities for us, creates opportunities for us to impact the community. So all good things come, come from reviews. I feel like.

Will  35:58  

One, one last piece on that. You know, we see that if a firm is ranking number one in that local pack, right, they are not going to convert as if they’re ranking number one, if the firm’s ranking two and three have a very substantial, a substantially higher number of reviews, right? So oftentimes, people might like to say, oh, look like right. You see me up here. I’m number one, but if firms two and three have, you know, two three times the number of reviews that you have, they’re more likely to convert, right? And so that ranking doesn’t matter if you aren’t converting upon it.

Chris Earley  36:31  

Well, if you’re ordering pizza, right, you’re in Baltimore or, like, the Miami for the first time, wherever, and you’re like, I’m gonna get a good pizza. Like, yeah, I’m gonna go going with 300 reviews, as opposed to one with five reviews, right? More times than not, I want to see, like, a great deal of social proof, right? Because that’s must be a good pizza, then everyone’s raving about it.

Will  36:50  

Hilarious. It’s hilarious that you say that, because that is, that is the exact analogy that I use on calls with people you absolutely, you absolutely have it. That’s spot on. We’re exactly on the same page. There one of my final questions for you here. So at the end of the book, I’ve skimmed through the parts that I haven’t been able to read, and it ends essentially with like, a message of kind of peace and fulfillment, right? Yeah, but I wanted to ask you, you know, what’s the one or two things that you’re still working on there? You know, where you feel like, Hey, I haven’t achieved that quite yet.

Chris Earley  37:26  

If I’m being brutally honest, I’ll just lay it out, being a better husband. Because I’m so focused on, like, not being, not being the dad that I had. I’m just so focused, focused on my kids, kids, my wife is like, Hey, I’m over here too. So it’s hard, you know, because we’re trying to take care of everyone our lives. So definitely have to work on on that department more, and always trying to become, you know, that’s my personal life and professional I’ve always trying to become a better leader, you know, and being and that’s why I’m into so I’m self aware. Am I being too hard on people like, you know, you, do you, you interface entrepreneurs all day long, right? A lot of us, it’s just like, hard charging, go, go, go. I have to sort of dial that back and be like, okay, chill. Like, slow down. Let’s not go. Burn people out. So you’re trying to, like, I said, brilliant, be a better husband and always work on being a better leader, because I’ve got a lot of work in both those departments.

Will  38:19  

I love that. That’s, you know, that that that is the element of being a better leader, right? That that is the definition of something that they don’t teach you in law school, right? Like that. That is, that is absolutely something that you know you kind of have to learn as as you go. And I’d imagine that resonates with with a lot of people here as well.

Chris Earley  38:41  

Quickly Will. I would just encourage the audience to poll your staff. You have one person or 100 ask them about your leadership skills. So I listen to you. Do I? Do I welcome your ideas? Do? Do Am I accessible to you? Like stuff like that. Like pull your staff, pull your people, and see what they’re telling you, because you’re gonna learn some stuff that you probably will cringe at, but you work on that, I think those things can kind of get better. Yeah,

Will  39:04  

yeah, in a similar sense, right? I want to kind of crowdsource all of the information that you’ve pulled together from Masterminds, conferences in just your experiences there. And, you know, speaking with people who are, you know, trying to grow and scale their own firm, what would you say is, kind of the common thing that you always tend to see, that people run into issues with, and, you know, how would you recommend maybe solving that problem? In your experience,

Chris Earley  39:29  

I see a lot of overthinking things us lawyers, like, it’s like, analysis paralysis. I mean, just let the freaking thing rip, right? Like, like, talking about digital right? You deal with a client’s like, oh, the font isn’t perfect on your website. Well, it’s never gonna be perfect. Just, like, just, let’s put the font up and see what happens. We can work on that, right? So little things like that, um, it’s just like, letting things rip. That’s my that’s my best. And only town is like, I’ll just swing the bat. Will? I’ll just keep swinging the bat and swinging. Back, because I don’t really care. But one concept I want to just shed or just put light on, that I’m sure, like people have heard of, is the idea of Kaizen, right? Small, continuous, daily improvement, right? You’ve heard of that. It’s just getting a little bit better, like point 1% better each day. What happens? Over a year? You’re 10, 20% better, whatever the math dictates, right? Getting a little bit better, but you can’t get better if you’re overthinking everything. Swing the bat, you know, shoot the puck and be willing to fail. And that’s, I think, where you can get a lot of success. That’s at least my, my, my, my philosophy.

Will  40:37  

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And it’s funny. David Vicknair said something very similar when I had him on a couple weeks ago, and so that’s clearly a theme, right? He basically said the same thing. He was like, you know, oftentimes people think to the point where they don’t react to something along those lines, right? They don’t actually, you know, go into action. And I think, yeah, that’s a power that you have when you’re running your own firm. You can make that action right? And so I think that’s awesome that you you feel that as well. Last question for you here, you know, obviously we talked about about your book scale on the wall, available everywhere for I would imagine, where else, you know, can people get in touch with you, send your case, you know, learn from you. Just connect.

Chris Earley  41:25  

Yeah, I love talking about this stuff. Like I could talk all day with you. Like, great show, great conversation. I love this stuff. So if anyone wants to talk, you know, offline, call me begin my cell. It’s, will be the show notes, or no, we

Will  41:38  

can put your cell in the show notes if you

Chris Earley  41:42  

literally, so the horse is out of the barn, man,

Will  41:50  

we’ll drop, We’ll drop Chris’s stuff in the show notes.

Chris Earley  41:54  

Maybe don’t hear from you. I’d love to hear. Reach out. Let’s talk. Let’s help each other grow. Let’s geek out and help one another.

Will  42:01  

I love that. I love that. Yeah, and hit him up on LinkedIn, and, you know, his website and all that stuff. He’s great. And Chris, I really, really mean this. You know, I as you right? We speak to tons of people all the time. You genuinely are one of, like, the kindest, nicest people out there. And like, it is going to be a great conversation to have. Like Chris is someone who can absolutely help you, but he’s also just a really nice person to talk to and and like that. In and of itself, I think is all that you need there. So Chris, I really appreciate it.

Chris Earley  42:33  

Appreciate you got that good aura, right?

Will  42:36  

So you as well. It’s a good conversation. Yes, yes, all right. Well, thanks so much, Chris. Really appreciate you joining, and excited for everybody to listen here. I think there’s a lot that our listeners are gonna be able to take away from this.

Chris Earley  42:50  

Thank you so very much.