Jay Ruane  0:00  

Hello, hello. And welcome to this edition of The Law Firm Blueprint. I’m one of your hosts, Jay Ruane, and with me, as always, is my man, Seth Price, down there in the BluShark and DC headquarters of Price Benowitz. LLP, LLC? What are you at? 

 

Seth Price  0:20  

LLP! 

 

Jay Ruane  0:21  

LLP, nice. Very good. Okay, folks, so we’re back, and this is a wonderful day because it’s spring. Spring is over, summer’s over, Fall is here, right? Labor Day’s this weekend.

 

Seth Price  0:32  

It’s amazing. Like every year when the weather changes, and this year, I felt like it changed early, like we’re still in summer in DC, and it’s been fall. It’s cool. I love it. 

 

Jay Ruane  0:41  

Yeah, I had a jacket on this week, this past weekend. I mean, I live in New England, so I’m ready for stick season, and then we’ll get the leaves, and we’ll get stick season, then we’ll get winter. I’m all good 

 

Seth Price  0:53  

Generally, like Labor Day, it’s warmer, warm, and then not, and this is not so much. It was an early, early coolness. 

 

Jay Ruane  1:00  

So, okay, now Labor Day has come. Summer vacations are over. You’re going for the big push towards the end of the year, right? You want to, you want to end the year strong and all that fun stuff. What are your priorities now going forward, over the next, you know, four months? Like, what are, is there anything that you’re thinking of, as what you need to end the year with so that 2025 is a huge success? 

 

Seth Price  1:33  

You know, I think it’s a mixed bet on the law firm side. You know, the end of the year is when pi comes together. So those people doing pi, I know 

 

Jay Ruane  1:41  

What percentage of your firm is Pi now? 

 

Seth Price  1:44  

This year, maybe it will be 50% if we hit 50% potentially for the first time. You know, we do historically, you know, a solid number of criminal which has always been too hard to beat, depending the thing with PIs, you don’t know where it’s going to go. Criminal, pretty consistent. Pretty consistent. You got that month over month, we had a big setback on the criminal side that a lot of the stuff that our president has done, really changed the game on federal criminal prosecutions. And, you know, our world, and actually significantly, the other people doing federal criminal were sort of said scrambling, it really upset the apple cart. And so here it’s much more of, how do you finish out the year decently, whereas other areas like family and our criminal and PI have done nicely. And so I think that, you know, you look you ask a great question, how you finish out the year? For me, it’s finish out the plan with PI, which is, you know, there’s an arc in the year, as far as when the settlements come in, which is crazy, but I think it’s, you know, prune as much as you can out of areas that don’t have it. And we’ve done that one of my partners, who was, who is full-time white collar, and you and your dad, I know, had this back in the day, pivoted into PI and has had a really good, successful run. And the goal is to take this guy who’s a juggernaut out of a trial lawyer, and turn him into an incredible PI lawyer, litigator, which is, you know, come on trees. So, you know, lots of good stuff. There few things on my mind, being a little ADHD on you that we’ve talked about over the years, figuring out bringing people on without experience versus with experience. We’ve talked about that countless times. I’m now living a new version of it, where it’s so hard, as you know, to find great talent for a bunch of reasons. Number of people going to law school, loan forgiveness programs, etc, that I am now struggling with. Do you start a summer program? Is that too early? Because then you don’t know whether people actually want to do your type of law? Are you going to pick up some of these? You know, newbies, people coming out of clerkships, which also comes with risk, because it’s more expensive, it’s not the same recent college grad, recent Law School grad, and try to figure out that mix in the game. How about you? What’s your race to the end of the year look like? 

 

Jay Ruane  4:10  

So, you know, I’ve been investing. This is something I want to talk about. I’ve been investing a lot in brand over the last two and a half, three years, and we’re probably spending 30 to 35% of our marketing dollars now, not on hot leads like LSAS in the criminal market, but we’re spending more and more on brand. I’m doing a ton of YouTube. I mean, I think last year we ran 15 million YouTube unskippable ads, and now YouTube’s going to be running 30-second unskippable ads, which I mean, I think that means that they’re going to then throw those onto their YouTube TV platform, which we’re already getting traction on. And I’m just, 

 

Seth Price  4:57  

I don’t get it, like I wrote a very large cryptography. It’s like yours. I’ve never seen brand work the way I want it to. I see it in PI, and not that it can’t work in criminal. I just can’t believe that you can’t get a better return from other search elements for criminal compared to brand like what are you seeing you spending all this money? Are you seeing the cases go up significantly? 

 

Jay Ruane  5:22  

Well, I mean, we, we’re growing. We’re still, we’re still in growth. I mean, our criminal practice is going to grow wind up like I think we’re right now, so far, year to date, point 5% 

 

Seth Price  5:33  

I’m sorry, how many? 

 

Jay Ruane  5:34  

16.5 and doing, 

 

Seth Price  5:37  

Historically, just doing your normal digital play. 

 

Jay Ruane  5:40  

Yeah, it was just, it was, you know, it was just paper. I mean, the only difference that we’ve added is the brand stuff on social and on YouTube 

 

Seth Price  5:52  

Or again. And I know it’s impossible, are you at or how many people are coming in through traditional channels? When you say through the phones, when you say, Have you seen our YouTube ads, are saying, yes. 

 

Seth Price  6:07  

I’d say at least. Well, what’s 1/8 so that’s what’s that 12% a week acknowledge that they’ve seen them. They’re not saying necessarily that that was the deal. 

 

Seth Price  6:19  

All I wonder is if they’re seeing them. Yeah, that and of itself, that is amazing. I, you know, I have not figured that out. You know, there are guys in upstate New York who do DUI radio ads all over the place. There’s a guy on the West Coast, Kavinoky, did a great run doing that. So it’s, 

 

Jay Ruane  6:37  

I don’t know anybody who listens to the radio anymore. That’s the problem. 

 

Seth Price  6:40  

Well, the people that will, let’s put it, your demographic 

 

Jay Ruane  6:44  

Right, my demographic doesn’t 

 

Seth Price  6:45  

right. So they may be YouTube Unskippable Ad is the new version of what was radio, for example. You know, given it’s ironic, because there was a whole thing about how a certain segment of the population listens to YouTube and doesn’t watch it. 

 

Jay Ruane  6:59  

Right? 

 

Seth Price  6:59  

You know, probably my team at work. But I, 

 

Jay Ruane  7:03  

It’s interesting. I years ago, I ran radio, yeah, and when I ran radio, you know, they produced this very slick commercial for me, and it was, you know, it was people talking blah, blah, blah, you know, over it looks, sounds like you’re in a bar, then there’s the ignition and there’s the siren. And I was like, I hated it. And they’re like, Well, what do you want? And I said, I want 15 different people saying my firm name on loop for, you know, 30 seconds. And so they, they, they told me, they, they would try to produce it. And I went out and I produced it myself. I did it 

 

Seth Price  7:41  

Classic Jay. 

 

Jay Ruane  7:42  

This is who I am, right? I actually Chuck Rathburn, who probably listens to the show. He helped me put it together with a bunch of his kids and their friends. We ran the commercial for a month, and I got a bunch of feedback that it was the number one commercial that was requested to be taken off the air that it was because it was an ear worm. It was, it was people just saying my name for 15 seconds straight, or 30 seconds straight, and the salesman was like, I can’t believe the response that we got. We had more people calling in for this than to win money. I mean, we saw an uptick in people calling us directly. I still get people who call us who say, I heard you on the radio years ago, and they’re like and I hated you. I hated you because I was sitting in my car at a traffic light waiting for Howard Stern to come back on the air or the music to start back up, and all I heard was your name, like, for 30 seconds straight, and it just drove me crazy. And so I have that running on YouTube now for those people who don’t watch it, and it’s just, you know, for the brand. It’s my Mr. Speedsinger brand, and it’s, it’s horrific. I should probably, I’ll send it to your people. They can splice it into the show, and people can hear it, because it is just it will drive you mad. But guess what? People are remembering it.

 

Seth Price  9:05  

No, I got you, and look so I have the opposite. We’ve been doing, you know, thanks to the Mike Morse push for Fireproof, we’ve been doing a backpack giveaway three years running, giving away several 1000 backpacks. It’s awesome. It’s awesome for the community. It’s awesome for the team. Team comes together. We’re large enough now that people get to spend time and don’t normally spend time together. Lots and lots of positive lot of effort, lot of money goes into it. And along those lines, I you know, it’s one of those life moments when you look at what the nut is, and not that you don’t want to do a giveaway, but it’s, what are you getting for brand? How much of this thank you for my object, versus what is retained during that interaction? And I’m, you know, slowly coming around, like there are two different worlds, right? There’s the John Moore, which is spend money everywhere. It doesn’t matter. The brand comes back versus you know, if you’re doing something tactile like that, is less more? Is it something? You know, my thought right now is to do something more carnival-like with a bounce house, face painters, maybe some different social services, agencies or nonprofits, at events where you’re handing it where it’s more of a conversation than how many can we giveaway how quickly? And changing that metaphor to be part of a relationship rather than just, you know, so look, and it’s brand works, right? You stuck in somebody’s head. They may hate you. Why do people listen to Howard Stern? You know, because they want to hear what he was going to say next, good and bad. So I get it. I just it is one of those things. And as somebody who has over the last two years now, we now have a from 100% digital, we now have a radio budget, and we now have a TV budget, and that it drives me crazy from the fact that I can’t really demonstrate the ROI from them, and that, you know, it comes through digital so as a guy with a digital marketing agency, it’s great because your numbers up, and so there is more money. But how do you demonstrate that it’s from one particular source? 

 

Jay Ruane  9:05  

So here’s the question I have for you, and I don’t have the answer for myself, but I’ll post it to every to you. It’s everybody in the audience. You’re spending money on brand, right with the backpacks. But what is the brand of Price Benowitz? Like, how does that brand connect with the people who are taking the..And that, I think, is the issue, because, like for me, I defend people who are charged with crimes. I defend people who are drivers. It makes sense for me to give out insurance card holders to everybody who I have as a client because they got pulled over and asked for registration and insurance. 

 

Seth Price  9:05  

They know that. They know the decision. 

 

Jay Ruane  9:05  

They know they need that. But when you are doing a mass giveaway like that, you just have people who are showing up to take the freebie. 

 

Seth Price  9:05  

And it’s part of it is that, like this, is the use of this particular, you know situation, is you are doing that. You’re saying, Hey, I’m not wanting anything. It’s literally a goodwill piece. It’s Jay buying drinks for the entire bar. 

 

Jay Ruane  9:05  

But you’re trying to do that at skip, but I but listen, if I buy drinks for the entire bar, I’m probably gonna get acknowledged by everybody in that bar to something like, say, there’s 100% of the night, 

 

Seth Price  9:25  

If you buy a round, what percentage of people will know your name, and it’s not as much as we think, right? 

 

Jay Ruane  9:25  

So say 50% 

 

Seth Price  9:25  

no understood, and I would be okay with that. I think that by doing something instead, instead of just handing away a backpack, having something where there’s more of a connection.

 

Jay Ruane  9:25  

right? 

 

Seth Price  9:25  

Want to move towards, I see the flip side. We did this commander’s deal, right? So I have the commander’s partnership, you know, multi $100,000 buy in where we’re getting this, this brand association. And there, all you’re trying to do is associate your name with something that somebody likes. And I get, in essence, the backpack is that it’s just, instead of it’s being an NFL team, it’s when they see their kids like, 

 

Jay Ruane  9:25  

Can you use the commander’s logo in your marketing? 

 

Seth Price  9:25  

Yes, with a bunch of hoops you have to jump through. So 

 

Jay Ruane  9:25  

could you go on cameo and find a whole bunch of old Redskins players and get them to talk about how Price Benowitz is amazing, and then run those as YouTube ads. 

 

Seth Price  9:25  

That’s a great idea. B, you know what you know, like, I’ve learned all the dirty secrets of the inside, which is, you can do anything you want with the brand, as long as you pay an 18% VIG back to the NFL or to the commanders for every time you use it. So you pay money up front, and then you pay 18% for koozies, sweatshirts, lap, anything with the brand on it. You pay so it but it’s interesting, and I think time will tell you’re seeing some of the biggest players do this at sporting events. All you’re trying to do, there’s so you know, in all of our worlds, there’s competition. And how can you create something that might have a potential chance of that connection? 

 

Jay Ruane  9:36  

Yeah, like, you can get Joe Theismann on Cameo. I’m looking it up right now. Like, 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

There’s a different rate for commercial than for the, 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

Oh, absolutely. Doug Williams. Let’s see. I mean, Doug Williams, he didn’t he take him to the Super Bowl. He won a Super Bowl with him, right? 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

We got a bunch, you know, I’m gonna have to go Jay Ruane on this and figure out which How can I then take this piece? Because that’s what’s interesting when you get it you can’t use any players numbers, because you have to contract with them individually. So right, as soon as we got this, you know, DC has got a new quarterback, you and many, several $100,000 could have that guy as your spokesperson. So it’s like, just getting the team is not enough. It’s then lining up the talent. Great idea. I’ll look at that afterwards. 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

But, like, I mean, the but people are out there and they’re thinking, Gosh, what can I do? Okay, so here’s another example, right? What can I do to build brand with a certain cohort, right? And like, for example, I was talking to a colleague up here who does special education law. I have a daughter with special education needs. We had him represent her, and he did a fantastic job, right? And he said, You know, I want to build my brand among this community of kids who have special education needs. So I said, you know, a backpack giveaway is one thing, but you’re going to give away 100 backpacks to get one kid who might have special education needs or two. I said, why not? Because you are aware of this community, there are children that have autism that can’t go to the movies because it’s dark. They have sensory issues, and like I said, do they do the movie buyout? Have the lights on, have the volume down, and parents in the audience will be very much more patient.

 

Seth Price  13:47  

No, I just my kids volunteer for a group now, one coaches at it, amazing nonprofit the DC area, which does sports for special needs kids and a bunch of different activities like that. You know, throw your $500 for sponsorship at those things, because each of the parents attending, right who are bringing their kids each week. They’re the ones that are most likely to have the most serious need for you. 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

Yeah, and you know, since you talk about that, my son, he played a little league. He graduated from Little League at the end of last year. Played travel for a year. He’s giving it up. But the one thing he’s not giving up he coaches the Challenger Division of Little League. He goes every Sunday for three hours, and he plays Little League with all these kids with special needs, and he loves it. He’s going into high school, and he’s like, I already got my service hours done for the year, and I can. I’ll do as many more as I can. 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

Our Open Door sports, an amazing organization, done by a local friend, and our kids volunteered, and now one has done the service hours, and now he’s a paid coach. 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

Yeah, it’s amazing. So one of the things I want to talk about was, did you know that this past week, August 23 so a little over a week earlier this week, I guess it was Sunday, cheapest day of the year to book travel. 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

Really, 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

I had no idea. My wife said, Hey, I got this in my feed a bunch of times. I got myself flights to Aruba and flights to Orlando around the Christmas holiday. And I got it all on points for like, under 200,000 points to go to both destinations all in I got a fly, got six flights to Orlando at 11,000 points, not to Orlando, to Aruba, 11,000 points each. Amazing. Now you are Mr. Trout. You travel everywhere. You’re on a flight every week, and I think you fly a lot of Southwest, right? 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

I used to, I moved, moved beyond, but that was my for many years. That was the way I did it. 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

Who are you flying now? 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

Well, I have buku loyalty with American 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

okay, 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

They all suck. 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

They really do. I mean, we talked about on the show how…. 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

And you got screwed by the best of them. I wish I had delta, which is screwed, you know. But Southwest is not what Southwest was. I don’t want to be terrible, but you know, it’s sort of they’re going through a bunch of changes American. You look there, they if the planes land safely and take off safely, God bless. But it’s the closest to my house. It’s easy, and when it works, it’s awesome. You know, United has Dulles, and Dulles is coming the worst airport in the world. But anyway, no good answers. 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

So, are you like the king of points for travel? You gotta have a million points.

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

We never talk about that here, but, you know, I  study that stuff. It’s a hobby. It’s better than meth. I, you know, I basically, and especially, we could do a special episode on this, you know. And there’s a lot of other people in our space like that that love this as well. But which credit cards for a business owner is very different than for a consumer, and mixing it up. So if you know that you have X dollars per spend, if somebody says, I have a million dollars a year that I put on credit cards for my firm, you know how you divide that up? For example, you know a buck 10, a buck 20 on Southwest gets you a companion pass right? If you were all in on Southwest, you and your wife could each get one right, 240, towards it, for example, and then two kids fly free. Just as an example, 

 

Jay Ruane  13:47  

I’m flying out of LaGuardia. Or Westchester, Southwest doesn’t go 

 

Seth Price  13:47  

Yeah, so there, you know, you need Delta American. The thing about American is, with 200,000 American, you can have executive platinum right the top, their top level stuff. It’s two or 250 something like that. And all of a sudden you’re getting perks. You’re occasionally getting your family out, your people upgraded, you know, again, maybe you don’t want to go executive pot, if you only put 75 and then we have free luggage for your whole family when you travel, whatever it is, you know, each of these different piece or you get yourself to economy, plus they’re right, different games. Then you have the AMEX is with its travel portal, you know, where you could send it to different airlines so that you keep it there. Oh, I want to go Emirates. You put it on Emirates, you know. And what’s interesting is the battle. So we have Chase just went all in on a luxury one. It’s now 795 I was never the business card. So you have that on one side where they didn’t give you coupons. So it’s $800 but you get $300 for this and four $200 for that. And what’s really interesting is that it’s all well and good. It’s about a break even on the coupons to what you’re doing on average depends how you know. they’re trying to get you on the business card, for example, to use things like ZipRecruiter or eat or they have these partnerships where the companies give the money to get these. But what’s interesting on the chase one is that if you get over a minimum spend, it’s more on the business than on the personal. There’s a $500 Southwest credit and, well, that’s real money, like, like, you’re at an airport where you don’t see a lot of it, but if you take one trip a year that would, you know you could spend it. So it’s figuring that out, and then Capital One’s in the game. So I think a lot of it’s figuring it out. I think that at the end of the day, if you had a 2% cash back card, you’d likely be better off and not do all the permutations that I’m doing and just enjoy it. But there’s something about when I travel that it’s free that makes me do things I wouldn’t do or otherwise I would not pay for a business class trip when I travel internationally. But I love it, and it allows 

 

Jay Ruane  22:11  

You wouldn’t pay for a business class? 

 

Seth Price  22:14  

I know this allows me to get it and not think about the money. 

 

Jay Ruane  22:19  

Oh, see if I’m flying anything over four hours, I gotta be first class, business class at the worst. 

 

Seth Price  22:25  

You’re the same guy who I also aspire to be, where you meals and you do these things. I it’s just a mindset, like, I’m looking at a new car right now, and like, you know, I wanted a Tesla, but I can’t buy that now, because it’s persona on the ground in my neighborhood. So, you know, and I just the idea that I’m going from no car payment for the last 13 years, I’m leasing now, right? Want to lease it through the firm, and I’m looking at this stuff and like, when did cars become that? I like $80,000 

 

Jay Ruane  22:54  

They really are ridiculously expensive. 

 

Seth Price  22:56  

What I’m finding on the leases, they’re all pricing at 60, but they’re leasing off 40 by the time you put all the different shenanigans in. So, you know, it’s just been fast, and it’s, you know, GaryVee

 

Jay Ruane  23:09  

Isn’t it cheaper for you to just Uber everywhere? 

 

Seth Price  23:12  

I would prefer to do that any day. There’s a certain amount of life in the suburbs that it helps to have an actual vehicle and but that for that reason, I actually, you know, I’m looking at it and I want an electric. My wife just got the Kia EV nine. It’s freaking awesome. Didn’t love the Kia on the the smaller SUV. So I’m looking around and give you an example. This is the type of stuff that keeps me up at night. Permutations would love a pole star. They’re really cool. Volvo makes them. They’re these cool electric cars, but they have a 27 month lease. That’s their that’s what they’re putting all their incentives into, instead of 36. Maryland, Virginia, I live in Maryland, requires you to pay the tax on a lease all up front. So does Virginia. I don’t know what New York, Connecticut do. DC has a higher tax, 10 instead of 6% but you pay it as you go. So on a shorter lease, it brings the cost way down. Whereas if it’s a short lease, if you did a short lease out of Maryland, you’re paying the entire tax up front, which amortized over a short period of time. It shoots it up. So part of it is who has the deal at what time could afford to make afford either of them. But the idea of going from zero to, like, $1,000 a month seems insane. I’m more like a, you know, a six, $700 person, write it off and I can quasi live with it. But yes, I wish I could just uber everywhere. 

 

Jay Ruane  24:42  

Yeah, I can. I can’t only imagine. All right, I think that’s a whole, we went a whole trip around the world there, but I think it’s good. And folks, if you are charging stuff for your business, for your firm, you should be looking for some sort of rewards, whatever you’re going to use, but you got to use them. I got, right now, I got 2.9 million Amex miles. I got to do something with them. 

 

Seth Price  25:04  

Well, yeah, yeah. Well, look, you don’t want to let them sit too long, because they devalue at the same time. You know, they’re also great for a rainy day when, you know, you I had a situation like yours, where I knew the night before a flight was canceled for two people and was able to move miles around and get a Delta first class flight to Aruba that my wife and daughter took. My daughter is sitting in first class at age three with her bagel and orange juice. You know, God bless. So it’s great when you need them. I would say my biggest sort of hack, and we can talk about this more extensively, is the AMEX business gold, right? Everyone’s platinum. First lounges business gold, 4x on internet, spend Facebook and yeah, and Google, and that’s a big deal. And you could max it out for a buck 50. And if you’re spending more than a buck 50 a year, you get a second one. It’s a great product, yeah. 

 

Jay Ruane  25:50  

Oh, I’m definitely spending more than 150,000. 

 

Seth Price  25:59  

So if you want to double your AmEx, you know, 

 

Jay Ruane  26:03  

Point, yeah, I should do that. These are the things. These are the things, folks, this is what matters. All right, that’s going to do it for us this week on The Law Firm Blueprint. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you for being here with us. Of course, you can take us on the go anywhere you want to go by subscribing to the Law Firm Blueprint podcast. And as always, you can catch us live on LinkedIn and live in our Facebook group, the Law Firm Blueprint, 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific. That’s going to do it for us. He’s Seth, I’m Jay. Have a wonderful Labor Day weekend, folks. We’ll see you next week as we push towards the end of the year. Bye for now.