Jay Ruane  00:00

Hello, hello. Welcome to this edition of the Law Firm Blueprint. I’m one of your hosts, Jay Ruane and with me is my man Seth Price. Down there, actually, at the blush, no, the Price Benowitz headquarters today. That’s fantastic. How are things in Price Benowitz?

Seth Price  00:23

You know, two steps forward, one step back. Good news is plans practice, doing nicely. Biggest thing we’ve talked a little bit on the show the ability to get and attract viable candidates in the criminal and even family space. It is tough. The struggle is real, so much so the Virginia bar just put out there, putting a committee together. This is not just me. This is like a thing where the talent is not out there, and, God forbid, it is out there. The 10 law schools are so expensive, the 10 year debt forgiveness means that, no, you can’t. My model. You know this. How many years have I said, third to eighth year? That’s what I want. I can’t get it, because you go three years, they’re locked in with golden handcuffs.

Jay Ruane  01:05

They absolutely are. They absolutely are. And it’s one of the problems with us scaling our businesses and doing that. I gotta tell you, I was Mr. You know, it’s funny that you know you were. Before we came online, you were talking about, you pulled the Jay Ruane. I pulled the Seth Price. I went to a conference last week. I was down. I was down at the Best Era AI conference, and a friend of the show, I want to let him know right off the front, because I know he’s going to be listening Tom Tona. We were able to move things, and we got to sit next to each other and basically talk the whole ride back from Charleston, back to LaGuardia, chatted the whole time. Was great time.

Seth Price  01:40

Super fan. Starting to put a guest on the show. We got to get Tona on here. He’s a force of nature. He is one enjoyable guy.

Jay Ruane  01:47

You know, it’s interesting. We were talking, I mean, I’m in the criminal space. He’s in the PI space. We started around the same time, and it’s interesting.

Seth Price  01:51

A lot of similarities.

Jay Ruane  01:51

There’s a lot of similarities. We’re struggling with the same issues.

Seth Price  01:59

That’s why he listens to our podcast that he thinks we’re talking to him. I mean, when I speak to him, he’s not wrong. I mean, he’s done every nonsensical thing. he had the you know, bringing the rock star litigator. our friend Fisher, did the same thing. And the odds of getting something at that level, it hits your company culture and does everything you need. And shockingly, in both instances, big bull in a china shop blows up. No, no easy answer, is it?

Jay Ruane  02:25

Yeah, there really, there really isn’t an easy answer. But I gotta tell you, man, I was at this AI conference. It was well attended, and the cool thing about it was that I got to speak first. Sort of just set the stage for the whole two days. But it was really interactive, and it was interesting seeing what other people are doing with AI in the legal space from a user perspective. And the people that were attendees were awesome in just embracing the new paradigm of how we’re approaching it, trying to find out the what tools to use. I got lucky. I got to sit and talk with Dan Schnurbusch, who’s got his tech tools for legal tech for lawyers. I forget the name of the Facebook group that he has. I’ll put it up in the show notes, but Dan is a powerhouse when it comes to using technology. And we got to sit again across from each other at dinner and really chat. That was a phenomenal Carolyn Elephant was at our table. Anastasia Boyco was at our table, and the four of us really just dove deep into the future of law. And the speakers were great. So I gotta tell you, it was a fantastic event. It was good getting out there, seeing people shaking hands, your people coming up to me, telling me they’re listening to the show, you know.

Seth Price  03:40

That’s the amazing thing, isn’t it? Like, who are all these people? That’s awesome. Thank you for listening.

Jay Ruane  03:44

Yeah, so thank you all for listening and thank you for being with us. But I’m, I gotta tell you, Seth, I’m in the middle of cut month in November, I was going through my bills. Are you doing it? What’s going on?

Seth Price  03:55

First, I did it. Let me just put this out on a personal level. Maybe this will bring because I don’t always listen to Jay Ruane fully as much as I should. But on a personal level, I got two new cars, leased a car. All of a sudden I’m like Sirius XM. What was I paying with when this stuff gets out of its introductory period, 22 and change a month per effing car you call up? Oh yes, there’s a promotion at 4.99. Unbelievable. Checking what credit cards you have. This was just like one night. I think I saved several $1,000. what credit cards you have that give you free apple you know, streaming, free Apple Music, it could be Paramount Plus. And you gotta be careful some stuff comes with a catch. I tried a complicated play, which was the AMEX platinum and AmEx business gold gives you Walmart plus. so I had one of each of these, and I was like, oh, that’s great. I can save now on Peacock and Paramount Plus. Yeah, Walmart, that’s awesome. Oh, I do all this work. It took me about a half hour and then they’re like, oh, yeah, that’s the stuff you get for free somes with the ads. So then there’s a $5 upsell. So it’s not a free lunch.

Jay Ruane  05:10

cheap Seth price won’t go with the ads.

Seth Price  05:13

I don’t do the ads. I don’t do ads

Jay Ruane  05:14

really?

Seth Price  05:15

Yeah, no,

Jay Ruane  05:17

wow, no. That blows my money.

Seth Price  05:20

For $5 a month. You know, I’m not like I will. I think the whole point is, I it is, but as I added up all the stuff, like, in 45 minutes, saved about $2,200 cash flow wise. not to mention, there’s the kid who’s who signed up for a gym membership, you know, got sick and never started going back. There’s, wife on the peloton. All of these things added up to free, like again, each thing in of itself. Who cares about $25, $50 a month. It’s when you start putting it together. It’s real money.

Jay Ruane  05:53

Oh, absolutely, it’s real money. We found out last year that one of our lawyers had signed up for a storage spot for some dead files that we need to keep on proper like we needed to keep them, but we didn’t need them in the office. And so we were paying $800 a month for a storage unit that we could have moved those into one of our other storage units and save the 800. so I did. I hired some high school kids to help me move the stuff. But you got to look at this stuff with a fine tooth comb. Because, I mean, $800 a month, that’s a lot of money a year.

Seth Price  06:30

Yeah, and so what we’re starting look, we’re starting to think about, how do we work smarter? We were humbled by a couple of the contractions in criminal. meaning I normally, I lose somebody, I just hire somebody back. It’s the first time in the firm’s history, 20 years, where I can’t just go to market and find a person who can walk and chew gum. can’t. And the people we’ve passed on people. One guy urinated on Dave’s couch during an interview.

Jay Ruane  06:55

What, woah, woah, woah, woah, woah. Hoppy, a little Seinfeld reference. Really? I gotta ask him.

Seth Price  07:06

All I know is the couch is no longer. Yeah, we had, you know, they’re all different types, right? I had one guy interview who’s perfectly great for a position I would have loved. And the guy started, he was the office that he would have been, was a couple hours away. And so I was like, he came, he drove in, he met Dave, he goes back. He said, I want to meet Seth, in person. Oh, sure. Want to come in. You want to drive two and a half hours? God bless you, right? Took him for lunch. Then he’s like, You know what? I really want to fly to South Carolina, meet Dane and shadow one of your other people for a day. I’m like, You know what time out.  You ever have something where something’s outside the standard deviation? It’s not. Hey, Scout, shut up. It’s not that he is a bad person, but the questions being asked, the actions, they’re outside the standard deviation. And you go for a while with it, for a minute, you’re like, look, I’m desperate. I’ll go along for the ride. I’m like, No, you know. Like, you never know. You know, it was like, dating back at back in our single days, you know, you went out with somebody who’s like, oh shit, it’s swastika tattooed on her. You never know, you know, right? So and so, like, you know, like this is like one the questions were, the asks were outside the standard deviation of, like, what you’d want, despite being a nice person, beside being at least an attorney, it’s not going to end well, okay, you’re not going to cut it off on that, but sure as heck, we played it out for a few, few weeks. So I called the bluff. I said, here’s an offer here then, because if you want, before you interview, you should at least know what the economics of your deal are.

Jay Ruane  08:45

Yeah, absolutely

Seth Price  08:46

right, right. So what before you’re going to do six rounds of voluntary interviews? I’d like to know if you agree to the money, so that if we agree, if you want to be here, and shockingly, all of us, you know, once you it was sort of like, Hey, you have the job. You can you can speak to anybody you want. But it was like, it was almost like somebody who got a thrill out of the interview process. And I’m like, You know what? Enough’s enough. So the struggle is real there. But I think we’re starting to see and I think we were humbled because we saw this contraction. It was probably like about a $1.5 million annualized. That’s been a year, been a couple of months, but what a potential for 1.5 million negative Delta in gross if we don’t replace these people? Right? The firm’s got lots of other income earners, but like this is money, where the marketing is there, the intakes there, accounting is there. All I need to do is get people to actually bill the hours and the, you know, meaning there are actually cases there on the hook to be done. The phone keeps ringing. And so for the first time, we’ve had to do. So, you know, look on the we’ve had a very positive profit margin, but we’ve never tried to get it down to the highest. We never tried to sort of squeeze every dime out of it. Have some redundancies. We talked about this on the show a lot, right? If you have an extra redundancy, you know, when somebody quits, it means that Jay is not working the weekend, right? So, but all of a sudden, I’m, like, with 1.5 million down potential. I mean, hopefully we won’t be all that. We’ll hire new people over the course of the next few months. But what I would say is that we are starting to look at, hey, where can we combine two jobs? And I you know, we know that technology is the the conference you just came from. We know that AI is going to replace jobs and is going to make things more efficient. The question is, where should we be looking already? Not because we want to, like, go on a firing spree. It’s more because, hey, if we can make, how do we make sure and bulletproof this to make sure it’s sustainable and that we don’t get to the point we’re ever in the danger zone.

Jay Ruane  11:02

Yeah, see, I mean the one of the thing that I took away from this conference regarding the use of AI is that I think with the right applications of AI in my office, I can actually allow my lawyers to handle more clients with less busy work. And so AI is doing some of the stuff that they would have otherwise done.

Seth Price  11:23

Can you give ma an example? I’m curious.

Jay Ruane  11:25

So one of the things that we we need to do as criminal defense attorneys is we need to actively assess the case. what the the charges are? what the elements of those offenses are? what their exposure is? where in the reports, does it reference that? What evidence does the state have to support those things? And it’s one of the things that happens in the colloquy between the defense lawyer and the judge at the time of a plea or a case is being put on the trial list. And so one of the things that we do is we used to have to generate, and I used to generate, and I had, I had a template that I’ve been using for 25 years now. This is our offer letter or options letter template that we use, and it basically walks the client down all of the different issues. Should you go to trial? Here are the things. if you want to plead here are the things you can think of. Is it a felony, misdemeanor? Collateral consequences? Oh, it’s, it’s a, it’s a six or seven page letter. But we do it because, number one, we’re going to be asked about it. Number two, we want the client to have it, to refer to it when they’re contemplating their options. That’s essentially why we call it the options letter. Well, it’s essentially your

Seth Price  12:29

Well, it’s essentially your demand, and that’s where the PI space and so 17 a holes out there giving demands, AI, you know, not to mention people just doing it themselves, the prompts and that you’re now saying, Hey, this is, this is a demand. There’s not a bucket of money out there with third party companies do it, but if they can do it pi, I can do it here.

Jay Ruane  12:44

Right? And so what we did is we fashioned the prompt, and now we have basically three different, you know, legal, criminal defense versions of the demand that are their own Gemini gems, and it’s dispersed among my team. And now they can upload the police report and answer a few questions and get the demand or the options that are generated, so we can save them time. I mean, it would. I mean, I know when I did PI, and I was right now to demand, and I was referencing things manually, it could take me a whole afternoon to get one of those things polished up nice and pretty the way I wanted to. And obviously, with digital documents, you can reduce that now we’re able to do it with with using AI. And the best thing for me is that it’s it becomes uniform, clean and complete, so I don’t have to, like, watch over the back, over the shoulder of an attorney when they’re starting out to do it because we’ve got the guardrails in place with with the AI prompts, so that it comes out the same way every time. We’re consistent. And that’s something that I love in a system based practice, is to be consistent so that every every client gets the same information that they all deserve. And it’s been great. It’s working now. And, you know, we were able to add to it, and we just got some feedback from a lawyer, and so we added a whole page, and now it’s deployed among everybody. So that’s one of the cool things about using AI, is that you can find use cases to really reduce the power on a person’s desk, and they can now talk to more clients.

Speaker 1  13:40

Well, right or look so first is better quality, but the second is like, right now I’m sitting here down three, four attorneys, you know, you might be able to get some of the I might not need as many units if, in fact, on flat fee cases in particular, there’s no better place than there somewhat a contingency where, if you can get the stuff done better and they can handle x number of more cases, that’s that’s a huge deal. So it’s not just quality of life, but in theory, if they’re getting paid by the case, they should be able to make more money, which should make them happier.

Jay Ruane  14:56

And if they’re not being paid by case in their own salary, it could make more. Revenue, net revenue. So it’s everybody wins in that respect, right? You know, so that, you know, I could take my bandwidth up from 100 cases per criminal offense lawyer to 110 or 125 that’s going to obviously allow us to go to grow. And I love that, and I love the fact that it’s consistent output means that somebody in Stanford, Connecticut and somebody in Hartford, Connecticut is getting all the information they need consistent, and we have, you know, a replicable letter that’s going out, you know, and it’s not, Oh, I forgot that section this this time. so that that really has made a huge difference for me. And that’s how I’m using, yeah, I’m not using it at the top level. I’m using it actually in the weeds.

Seth Price  15:42

No, I got you. And look, this is the scary part. So for the first time, you know, we started this podcast. I was the evangelist not to do first years. I’m now looking at it. We’re starting a first year criminal class, starting when law schools get out this year. Because, you know, nice. I hope you know. But the question is, how many people do you need starting to statistically make it worthwhile. If I told you I want, you know, hypothetically, I, you know, I need a lawyer with me in a year. You’re playing the odds. How many people have to start for that to happen?

Jay Ruane  16:16

At least six, probably.

Seth Price  16:17

If six for one, I mean, it might as well just close up shop. I’m, I’m hoping that if

Jay Ruane  16:24

if you’re bringing in first years,

Jay Ruane  16:26

yes

Jay Ruane  16:27

oh, oh, I thought you meant first year law students to work. I think, I think you need three. One’s gonna stick right.

Seth Price  16:37

And God forbid, two do, you’d be fine. But look, you know, it’s, you know, how many people decide it’s not what they want? How many people end up moving the state? I mean, all these things that are out there that are real. The piece that I do like is that AI could make some of the stuff easier. The downside is, you know, when Jay Ruane gets an AI document, right, we know you’re gonna look at it and look at an eyeball and say, That’s not right. The downside that I that we both know is there is that if it’s a junior person relying on it too much, that’s where there’s going to be issues.

Jay Ruane  17:06

I’m reviewing my prompts and testing them out before I deploy them.

Seth Price  17:10

So far, it’s better, but it’s not perfect.

Jay Ruane  17:14

Yeah, I want, you know. I want to, I want to make sure that the product coming out of the prompt has basically my brain in the prompt, so that it’s giving me the results that I want. And it’s, and it’s taking a while. It’s not something that, you know, you can’t just do one iteration of a prompt. You got to test, refine, tweak it, go back, refine it again. That’s, I mean, you know that the crazy thing is that we are the AI is the worst it’s going to be as of today, and then tomorrow, it’ll be better. The day after, it’ll be better. So it’s just a matter. I mean, there’s going to come a point where we’re really going to we’re really going to have to make some decisions as to how deep we want to use it. And I think I know me, I love going all in on something, and the more I can do that, the better. you know, the one of the things that came out to me. Now, I know you’re in the Google workspace suite, and I know you’ve invested a ton of money in Salesforce, which you you’ve built out to customize it, but I got to wonder why Google workplace doesn’t have just a really bare bones CRM. I mean, imagine, imagine if I was starting a business and I could sign up for email and spreadsheets and, oh, by the way, here’s a basic CRM that I could, you know, store my notes about a client on and their contact information,

Seth Price  18:35

right? In one sense, I’m sure it’s there. The other is, it’s they’re so fraught with peril. You know what I mean? And it’s like, it’s clunky. There’s integrations. I think Google’s so smart. Everything they do is like, zero touch from them. I just wonder whether they, they’re like, You know what? We’ll give up that piece of the market and allow these guys to do, to do this heavy lifting. A lot

Jay Ruane  18:57

it makes a lot of sense, but I could imagine that being that could be a killer for a lot of a lot

Seth Price  19:04

of bad Well, you know, Google Docs has changed the world. You know it’s doing and, you know, this Google spreadsheet, and it’s just, it’s another, you know, it used to be Microsoft license, and now it’s free, essentially. I mean, nothing’s free, but it’s

Jay Ruane  19:18

It’s funny. I I showed my father he wanted to create a document. I showed my father the doc dot new command, which opens up a brand new, clean Google document when you’re signed in. And it blew his mind. Wait, wait, I don’t have to go to docs dot google and then click on Start a new doc. Nope. Just type in doc dot new, and it starts. And, I mean, that’s the kind of stuff that, like cool tricks you can learn and really sort of moves you, moves you faster in the process. So, so let me ask you this. I know I don’t want to go too far out, but we’re coming into the end of the year. has 2025 accomplished what you wanted to accomplish, or have there been so many changes? Has your plan for the beginning of the year diverted? I mean, I know how I would answer the question. I’m curious, what you what you think?

Speaker 1  20:15

Our plans practice has grown nicely and built out. We’ve learned a lot, and they actually contract certain areas to more profitable skews. I think the tale for this, for the for the other side, is, I won’t say derail, but the labor piece has been a real has been a real problem. I don’t want to over harp it, but it’s, it’s not nothing, and it’s, it’s one of those ones that before I could spend my weekend recruiting and have a person by Monday morning. I don’t have that superpower right now,

Jay Ruane  20:44

I gotta tell you, we’ve been trying to get somebody into a seat for like, 15 months. Granted, we had a little hiccup when we had somebody who failed the bar that we thought would, and then extended out and we gave some grace probably shouldn’t have in that respect. But, you know, we finally got to interview somebody today, actually, who I think could fill a role for us.

Seth Price  21:08

Any role. hear the way you speak. This isn’t like, I found, I found the person who’s going to slice the bread for me. This is like, Hey, maybe I could. Maybe it’s just, it’s tough. It’s a right now, it’s a risk factor for those of us in the space. And I think that, you know, starting to think about, where is your pipeline, the idea that you would one person not pass the bar throw you off that far

Jay Ruane  21:30

I mean, you know, we’re still functioning. We’re still handling all the cases. I just haven’t been able to expand as much as I would have liked to.

Seth Price  21:38

Well, there you go. That’s That’s expansion is good.

Jay Ruane  21:40

And i guess if I decided to just jump back into the fray and handle it, the last thing I want to do, though, I just don’t have it in me anymore, and I acknowledge that,

Seth Price  21:50

what I would say is our intake is playing at the highest level it’s ever been. We’ve added a bunch of security protocols despite some hacks we’ve had, it’s going nicely, you know, EOS is running well, there’s a lot of really positive, good stuff, but at the end of the day, it’s, you know, you can have all the meetings you want, but if you don’t have the selling units.

Jay Ruane  22:13

it’s this, you know, it’s so funny, you know, I talked to people and they’re like, oh, you know what? You know, we can’t wait to get to your your spot, where you are. We’re so deep in the weeds. We’re covering cases every day, and then we’re coming home and we’re working on the marketing or the intake or all that stuff at night, and oh, I can’t wait to get to your role. I can’t wait to get to a place where I haven’t stand I’m like, Yeah, but that doesn’t mean that my role doesn’t have a lot of headaches, because it’s different.

Seth Price  22:42

It’s still, I still take your role. You’re out.

Jay Ruane  22:45

I gotta ask you a question. And this, this came up when I was sitting down. You don’t have a traditional C suite. I was sitting down with Tom tona on the flight back, right?

Seth Price  22:57

So I have, you know, we have controller, Director of ops, Director of intake, director of technology. We don’t have the high you know, look, I also think people use those titles generally incorrectly. Every firm has a controller, every firm that says it has a CMO has a Director of Marketing at best. And so in one respect, I think we just kept the titles real. These are, these are six figure earners. But what, you know, we’ve talked, you know, my, I believe my next hire, talk to Tona a lot about this is a C level finance person to help tie things together. Because, you know, right now, Dave and I, our sweat equity is what makes up for the Delta above where the director level can do things, but it’s, it is far from, you know, again, you know, if $30 million firm sounds like a lot, but like, as you know, with margins, it’s not like you have millions of dollars to throw around willy nilly.

Jay Ruane  24:02

and when you’re hiring mid level managers and above, they’re not necessarily, you know, adding to the bottom line, they’re drawing from it. So you then your profitability goes, you know, your your top line profitability into your pocket, gets to suffer if you if you’re hiring correct.

Seth Price  24:19

But look, I now conceptually have bought into the idea of adding some sea level piece. But then the question is, are we gonna follow the maxim of the first person doesn’t work the second, and we have to wait through three, two rounds of this to get to the right person. You know, high level hires. Toner included, I mentioned it before, Fisher included. They’re these. You know, far from a certainty. You bring somebody with a lot of money, the expectations go up, and you find out people are human. Sometimes they have lives they want to they want to do. And so can you find the person that hits your your acumen, you know, and that you know, you know we’re talking about the true sea level, 250, plus incentives. That’s. A 350 package with

Jay Ruane  25:02

that’s, that’s real money. Well, okay, so then this, this, let me ask you this then, and this, this also came up recently when I was talking to somebody. It wasn’t tona, it was somebody else, but hiring young lawyers, you know, three to eight years, and you’re going back to one. Somebody pitched me on they think they want to hire somebody who’s semi retired. And I was heartily, no

Seth Price  25:28

we’ve been down that road. It’s great. If it works, what are the odds that’s going to work? You know, is the person really like jazzed to work, but just semi retired. I mean, there are exceptions to every rule. And it’s like, it’s like a part time, you know, stay at home, mom, when it works, freaking awesome. How often is a few months later, say, all the kids are off from school. I can’t work anymore, or such a relative is sick, or, in this case, they’re semi retired Person. You know what I really want to be? I really want to travel the world, whatever it is. It’s not like. The reason that I’ve historically not liked part time myself is I want stability. And statistically, the odds of that part time person working for years limited. Do I have one woman, Rachel Burkhart, who’s done part time marketing and some part time stuff for for blue shark as needed with me 1314, years? Yeah, everyone. So I hit pager. But more realistically, I had a woman years ago who wanted to move to New York well before covid, well before remote work. I let her work remotely from New York, and she’s with me 1012, years later. That’s, that’s awesome. But when really, genuinely part time, if I love to see a staff I’ve always wanted to see stats on divorce, what? Which would divorce party, Saturday night, what? You know, what? When you when you have a part time person, what’s the odds that person is with you in a year?

Jay Ruane  26:41

Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, its a hallenge

Seth Price  26:48

It’s a band aid. Is it a band aid are you going to get? Are you going to labor beyond where you were from? That person or I did this once with a family member. I brought somebody in who was semi retired for some collections work, and their tech skills were so bad that it crashed and burned.

Jay Ruane  27:05

So it’s, it’s never easy. I mean, the reality is, is that we are, we are always trying to figure out the new, the next, the what if I and you have to have a bandwidth for some failures. I think that’s one of the, you know, not for nothing, but one of the challenges I think all of us as lawyers have when we are running our businesses is that, for the most part, any present company excluded, maybe the two of us, for the most part, lawyers who, you know, decide to strike it on their own and be entrepreneurs. We were, you know, highly educated overachievers in undergrad, overachievers in high school, lot of, lot of extracurriculars. And got out there, and we’re networking, and, yeah, I can do this. And you have a cautious level of optimism when you launch a single so you kind of expect things to go your way. You kind of have to, but then you get some setbacks, and then you’re like, What the heck that I get myself into, and things don’t break your way when historically they have, you know, and like, like, we today. We had a really good interview with with a lawyer who I think is going to, we’re going to make an offer to. And the question I said in the interview was, how do you deal with losing? You know, from a criminal defense perspective, you got to get used to getting kicked in the teeth and and that. And that was a question that he had never gotten in an interview before. How does he approach losing?

Seth Price  28:31

And it’s great for us. Forget about this success. How many people you go back through the years have disappointed you dramatically? We’ve talked we’ve talked we’ve talked about, you pull it off the show. But like, alcohol issues, count them. You know, inappropriate sexual issues, count them. Incompetent work things, count them. You know, all of these different you know, two jobs at once. Is the new du jour. You know, for especially from international people

Jay Ruane  28:58

like, oh, we had that happen to us this year,

Seth Price  29:00

twice, once in each country. In each company, you know, it’s there, it’s a thing. And so all I’d say is, it’s, you know, hopefully this show gives people some level of it’s not just you. Each morning, you got to wake up with a great attitude, even though, you know, there’s a good chance that one of those things I just mentioned is going to happen to you in the next quarter.

Jay Ruane  29:26

Absolutely. All right, folks, I think that’s going to do it for us this week. I am Jay Ruane, and he is Seth price. We are the law firm blueprint. Thank you so much for being with us today. Of course, you can catch us and take us on the go anywhere you want to go by subscribing to the law firm blueprint, podcast and catch our show live every week, 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific, live on LinkedIn and live in the group the law firm blueprint. Thank you so much. I am Jay bye for now.