Join Seth and Jay as they talk about employees and an abundance mindset.
Hello, hello and welcome to the Thursday edition of Maximum Growth Live. I am your host, Jay Ruane. With me as always, over there Seth Price. My firm Blushark- no, my firm isn’t Blushark, your firm’s Blushark. My firm is Firm Flex. Seth, we talk so much I get it mixed up. But how are you doing this week?
I’m, I’m uh, holding on. The seasons have changed, it’s no longer shorts, shorts weather. But, you know, again, two steps forward one step back and pushing forward.
Yeah, you know, we got a puppy a couple of weeks ago, and I’ve had to take the puppy out in the middle of the night. And last night 3am I was freezing, taking this puppy out to go to the bathroom. Crazy. But Seth, one of the things I want to talk about this week, and it dovetails nicely with our guest who we have this week, is we talked about undercover billionaire on Tuesday on our show. And boy, we got a ton of commentary and back and forth on our broadcasts. So Seth, let’s talk a little bit about that. What was your reaction to all the comments?
Well, look, it was, it was fascinating. And look, I, it was fascinating, because you could see there were people on either side of the argument, what was most fascinating was the thread that came out of John Fisher’s comment that picked up on this difference that you and I have on the abundance of sharing. And that to me, I didn’t really pick up on it as much during the show. But I went back and listened to it. I was like, there is something, so today we have Bill Umansky, I’d love to sort of drill down with him, because this is a guy who was up and running with a firm before when I just showed up on the scene. And so to see, and he’s been through much of this, he’s really good with the community, bringing people together, retaining relations with EX employees, etc. So I’m curious to see how he sort of fits into that world because it’s fascinating. I’ve always sort of love the idea of bringing people in that could become potential competitors, and getting to know them and hopefully having some sort of long term relationship with them. And I know that’s not your jam. But I’d love to see what Bill has to say about it.
Yeah, I think Bill is going to add a lot to this conversation. And since we do have a tendency to go long, why don’t we call him up? Let’s take a moment. We’ll take a short break. I’ll get him lined up on the call. We’ll hear from our sponsors. And when we come back, we’re going to do the Max Growth interview with the lawman, Bill Umansky. So give me about, give me about a minute. We’ll, we’ll have, we’ll be back here in a minute with Bill Umansky and we’ll be talking about abundance, associates, and all those wonderful things. Hang tight, folks, we’ll be right back.
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And we’re back, we’re back with our good friend, the lawman, Bill, I haven’t been able to, I haven’t been able to hang out with you in like, I don’t know, like a year now. Maybe less, maybe like nine months, and I am missing the lawman from our life. So Seth, why don’t you tell everybody who’s, who’s watching today. Tell him who the lawman is.
Well, Bill Umansky has been sort of a friend, a mentor and inspiration. I met Bill over a decade ago when I was trying to get my firm going. He was already going full steam. And one of the reasons I’m so excited to have Bill today is, as a lot of you have seen in the comments from our last show, there was a lot of back and forth about the you know, the abundance of giving and how much information to share. And one of the things that I recall distinctly when I first met Bill, and I was sort of flying high and kind of cocky thinking, Hey, I got these guys and I had, had lawyers stay year after year is, at some point Bill was telling me people left and set up shop across the street and started competing, which leads to a whole bunch of different issues. And I’d love to sort of unpack that with Bill today and talk about not just what it’s like when the attorney is there, knowing that someday that could be your competitor. But secondly, Jay, you were talking about, like not wanting to talk to competitors, and actually share as much now your former employees, you want to keep that that alumni group strong at the same time, those people may be competing directly against you. So Bill, talk to us about that, because you’ve been through this time and again..
Yeah, I think it starts with what you’re like when they work with you. And whether they respect you or not, I think we’ve talked before about, I love telling this story where I had a guy that started when he was in college, guys. And he started he used to read every single book and he wanted to be a top plaintiff’s lawyer and product liability lawyer. And he was much smarter than I was a harder worker than I was. And he graduated college, UCF, University of Central Florida. And he went to University of Florida law school. And at the time he got married. And here was the first step. And like we had an old car and country. What are those called, those minivans with TVs in them. We had young kids, the car was worth about $9,000. And he needed a car to go to school. So I just gave him the car. And when he came back, he worked when he was in law school, either clerked for us in the summers came backwards as a job. The point being, he went on to use one of many, but he went on and moved on. But when he came to give his notice, guys, he had his head down, and he wasn’t looking me in the eyes. And this is a guy that could look you in the eyes. He’s like, you know, I want to do my own thing. And basically, he was tired of my shit. He didn’t want to handle clients the way we wanted him to handle his clients. He wanted to be able to do whatever the fuck he wanted to do. Am I allowed to curse? And he, you know, he just want to do whatever he wanted to do. So, but he really had a hard time saying I want to leave. So I said, you can leave, you just got to give me a year’s notice. And he gave me a year’s notice. And he didn’t steal my clients. We help set them up, we help give them some people that he could rely upon. And you know, the next guy that ever did that, to me, knew when he came in, he goes, I want my own firm. And I was like, I can’t give you a year. I go, can you give me like six months? And can you find a replacement that’s better than you. And he did. So, you know, Seth and I were talking before the show how we’ve gotten burned by a lot of that. But that just it’s kind of those things, you know what you do for your employees. So this particular guy that had six months, you know, we were good to him, we took care of them, we sent him to either, was it Europe, on vacation with his wife. And when he went away, we had like a huge party with a limousine. And we all partied and we had him have a send off.
So Bill, Bill, to be fair, though, you’re talking a couple of awesome stories, and you’re an awesome, special guy, invests a lot. And I get that.
I want to, I want to quit your firm. Can I can quit your firm?
I’ve been, I’ve provided cars to employees, not necessarily lawyers, and, you know, been burned. I’ve had some of my favorite lawyers who have you know, didn’t give me six months’ notice but gave us notice. And then basically, some of my favorite people set up shop by saying, Well, I was trained by these guys. And now you get that training for you for half the price. You know, so, you know, you know, you’re giving us the great stories. But you know, as you know, it does, it does hurt when you set something up, and all of a sudden, what you’ve invested in, especially the amount that you invest, they’re not all perfect like that. And that for all of our listeners out there, there’s going to be that moment when the first person leaves and does that, it is a jolt.
Yeah. So yeah, we’ve definitely had people that have left. And usually some of those people were not people that actually left on great terms. But we left on amicable terms. But I have, I’m just being upfront with you, I have very rarely had someone, these two guys in particular, by the way, it’s not that they’re not setting up down the street. And I don’t know what they’re telling their people. In fact, quite frankly, they may be doing that, hey, Umansky’s firm trained us, they got all these systems, they have all this overhead. That’s why they’re charging more. If I ever found out that that happened there that you know, I told them, Listen, compete on price if you want, but let’s keep it clean. And let’s know who your friends are. So, you know, it has not happened to my knowledge that that’s actually happened where I’ve had an employee that’s left on good terms and most of those guys have left them good terms. So what I will tell you is it starts in the relationship process, in my opinion, when they’re working with you, you know, Seth, you say you have these lawyers that are good friends, you’ve been burned. I’ve been burned by employees and by lawyers, perhaps that worked for me that were not as competent or not as what we wanted them to do. I’ve had client relations people, more so than the lawyers have done that to me, and gone work to competitors. And I don’t have a competition clause. But when it strictly relates to the lawyer, I’m going to push back on you and say, most of these guys because we are trying to, I make a lot of mistakes, right, Jay? You know, like, I don’t, I fuck up. I’ve fucked up probably more than both of you.
But the thing is, you’re honest about it, and we text each other. I mean, I’ll tell you, Bill and I have been friends for a while now too, and, and we’ll text each other. Hey, I fucked up today. And I have to tell somebody, I messed up and, and you’ll talk me off the ledge. I’ll talk to you off the ledge. I mean, that’s what’s good about having, you know, people that you can turn to in these situations.
Yeah, I’m just pushing back a little saying I fucked up in a lot of different areas with my practice and marketing and all this other shit. But with yeah, but clearly, this-
It isn’t about whether we fucked up or not, I’m just trying to bring value to our listeners to get the different type of exits, look, nine times out of 10 our exits are good. People leave amicably nobody’s stealing clients, we figure out a way to finish off those cases. So the clients aren’t, you know, get the best, easiest transition. All that’s great. What I was trying to do, I want to pivot to Jay for a second. Because where this came out of was, I didn’t even pick up on this John Fisher sort of notice this piece in our discussion of the undercover billionaire, where my attitude I think, aligns a lot with with, with Bill’s, where we’ll take a potential competitor, somebody who’s new to town comes into our office sits down, I’ll speak to them the way that that lead in the coffee house or the brewer does. Jay took a position of No, I’m not going to do that. And I just wanted, I thought that was fascinating. I didn’t even I didn’t even hear it during the actual recording till somebody else brought it up. Jay would love your thoughts on that? Because it’s a slightly different approach to things.
Yeah, I mean, the reality is, is that you know, and this is a subject that comes up often I sit at my desk, and I have on the corner of my desk, a picture of my wife, and kids. And everything I do for my business is meant to protect them. And so if I have someone who has left, I will point them in direction of resources, but I am not going to give them any of the secret sauce, I am certainly not going to encourage them to get into my market. And if they say, Hey, you know what I want to get into the market, I’ll say, Fine, be ready for an arms race. Now, I know I’ve had associates who’ve left who tried to compete with me, I didn’t know I’ve lost clients, to former associates, when we were in the intake process. My response to that is they are right. I taught them absolutely everything that they know about DUI. I haven’t taught them everything I know about DUI. And so if you want to hire somebody who knows just enough, go with them that you’re not the right client for me. But I know, and I know some former associates who’ve left and hung a shingle and, and are giving that they’ve been able to steal a client from me in my sales process. God bless. I mean, it’s just the way it is. But, but I am not, I’m not going to help you compete with me at the level that you probably want. And I’m sorry, I just, I’ll say read this book, join this Facebook group. Some of my former associates, you know, I said you guys gotta get involved with maximum lawyer because it’s there’s great things for guys like you or women like you who want to hang a shingle. But, but there comes a fine line. I’m not talking Pay Per Click strategy with them.
Well, I wanted, I want to bring, bring this back to Bill, because I think there’s a distinction that came out because John comes from a purely PI big case point of view of limited number of cases, Jay, very criminal defense centric. Bill, you and myself sort of dance between two worlds where we have both the PI and the criminal, PI world, very egalitarian because the guy who you know, you use your competition could refer you a case and back and forth. I do see the criminal side is a little bit more competitive. What are your thoughts about you know, the difference between those worlds?
You know, obviously, if you get burned on a PI case, for instance, an associate takes a huge case from you. That’s huge, right? It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, that has never happened to me, but I have seen it happen at other firms that I’ve worked at. But I’m gonna go back, you asked about value and I’m gonna tell you something, when when you guys hire attorneys, are you hiring them? Because you want them to stay there long term?
I mean, for me, I’d like to think that they would want to stay long term. But you know, part of the, part of the conversation we have is when they come in to give their notice is they say, you know, I, I think it’s time for me to leave, I’m taking a job or I’m hanging a shingle and I say congratulations, because right now you’re living my vision, if you leaving here gets you to live your vision of what you want for life, I’m happy for you, man. Yeah, it’s gonna, I’m gonna take some lumps and figuring out who’s covering what and that type of thing. But, you know, every lawyer that I’ve hired, I’ve hired with an idea that they could be here long term.
So I, my perspective is when I hire, and I have a conversation with them, when they come in, I say to them, I don’t expect you to be here forever. And I, you know, I don’t even know if I want you here long term yet, because you know, only you did great at the interview. And you did terrific, but let’s see how you perform. But let’s have an ongoing relationship as we’re going through the process. So you know, for instance, last night, I’ve got a lawyer here, we sat in the bar, and we talked, we had a couple scotches and talked about stuff. And, you know, like, I feel like when I bring them in, some of them even telling me, I have a three year plan, I want to open my own firm, because I’m like, when I interview them, cut the bullshit, you know, you may not want to be here forever, you may not even know, what do you really want to do, I want to find out what it is you want to do. And I look at them as they’re walking in is at some point, they’re gonna walk out. And I want to have a relationship with them. If they’re good lawyers, and they were loyal to us. And they did a great job here, they and, they did a great job at certain functions here. I want to be able to develop a relationship because when they leave, you’re talking about PI, they can be referral sources that can be co-counsels that people, that refer us cases. And to me, that’s a win win. And it’s not just about business. I told you a long time ago, it’s about heart, having a relationship with these people. And then you get old, like, I’m old as fuck now, I’m 54. But you’re able to look back in your career and go, That guy now owns the building that I used to own. You know, my, one of my associates just bought a building that I was first in, on Fern Creek Avenue in downtown Orlando, and he leases to my old landlord who decided to stay in the building. These are cool stories that you tell your kids and say, you know, it’s not just about making money. It’s not making about life, but it’s making long term friends. And I hope they’re not dishing behind my back.
No, look, Bill, I get it I but I have a slightly different perspective, I do want people to stay forever, if I can make it worth their while. And one of the things one of the nuances and Jay and I go back and forth on this a lot. I have found in the fee for service areas, I’ve had a harder time doing this in the PI area and trying to get better. But in the fee for service areas, criminal, family, trust and estates, I have found that by cutting the lawyers in and making them vested as partners, within their group based on production has increased, taking money off the table for why somebody would leave, somebody wants to go in House of CAP one, I can’t do anything about it. So it’s a career change. But it’s allowed for removing of other margins, maybe slightly smaller. But when that’s gone, and they feel an empowerment, then they have a decision, do they want to go somewhere else because they really want their name on a shingle and we’ve had that once or twice. But generally, if we can eliminate money as the motivating factor for leaving, then we have a chance. And look, I agree with you. And I love the success stories of people that have left and have done cool things. But I also am extremely proud that we have people more and more staying a decade or more with us. To me, that’s, you know, that, that’s the homerun.
I, and, I’m going to say to you just because I say that I don’t expect them to stay long or forever. Doesn’t mean I don’t want them to stay long. We’ve had lawyers work for us for eight years. We’ve got guys in here five, six years now. And you know, so I think I’m and they are not brought in as partners, but they have a share of what they collect and what they bring in.
But to me that is, to me that is a partner. And I have, on a tangent, right? I believe that if I would like everybody to be a partner from the first year on. Why would we give somebody a scarlet a that they have to walk around with in order to sell, that’s my partner, he’s going to take care of you.
And I looked at it that too, that by giving them commission and giving them a piece and giving to them, you reduce your own margin, so what you’re making, but you’re making them feel empowered, I do agree with that. I’m just saying that it’s, Jay brought this up. Sometimes people leave because they’re gonna go fulfill their own vision. So it depends upon if you’re a Machiavellian or not. You’re like I’m hiring this person and I want them to be long term. I’m gonna make them a partner but I really just want them to see my vision or have them be my vision where as opposed to listen, we want to see if we can accomplish that with a firm as a vision. We want you to come in but we want you to add to that vision, in my opinion. What can you bring that’s different, what can you bring that’s diverse, what can you bring that, and make them feel like it’s their part, their vision, so they don’t want to leave? Well, to Jay’s point about like, but some point people just want to do their own thing.
Yeah. And one of the things that I got from William Eadie, you know, who is a nursing home lawyer, he’s got this philosophy that he discusses with people regularly, you know, stay, enjoy and leave in peace. You know, if you’re not happy here, we’ll help you find where you’re going to be happy. And leaving the firm doesn’t necessarily have to be a contentious thing. You know, I like being able to say to somebody who said, hey, it’s time for me to go, congratulations, you’re on your way. I wish you the best of success. Yeah, I mean, I’m not going to say, Oh, that’s a gut punch. And I gotta, I gotta hustle to find somebody because they were carrying a heavy load. That is what it is. But, you know, really, the most important thing is that you can encourage people to find their happiness and, and find their vision. I’m not going to necessarily help you out. I’m, I’m not necessarily referring you cases, if you’re going to compete with me, in my market, that’s just not how I do it.
I look. In your state, the biggest players, right, whether it’s Levin, Pap, or whether it’s Morgan, their alumni have gone on to do crazy stuff. And while there may be a little bit of issues when they leave, they end up in there, we’re playing in the same fishbowl and that like, to me, I love, I love the idea of like, can I make lemonade out of those lemons? Because, again, any breakup can be hard, because it may be that you weren’t ready for them to go, or maybe, you know, or vice versa. But the idea that if you can somehow keep that, those people as high a percentage as possible. And to me that, that’s something that I strive for, is that are there people that leave, yeah, are there people that have burned that, there’s some people that I know, that have to burn the ship when they leave, and it sucks as a business owner, because I would like those people to to not have that. And I’ve circled back with them years later, but there’s some people, the only way they can be driven is to sort of like say, hey, that sucked. That’s awful, I’m gonna go do my own thing. It’s unfortunate, but I’m sure you’ve both dealt with that type.
I know I have. I mean, I’ve had, I’ve had a couple of associates or attorneys, I don’t call them associates, I just call them attorneys. But I’ve had a couple attorneys in my office in the last two years, both of whom it was clear to me having gotten to know them over the years that they were with me that there was some personal issues going on with their relationships. And since they couldn’t control the relationships, they can control where they worked. And so they opted to say, I need to make a change in my life, I’m taking a new job, rather than do what they needed to do in their personal life. And I can’t stop that. And I get it. I mean, you know, if that’s the situation, and you’re miserable for six months, staring at your screen, because you can’t control something that’s running out of control, and you think a new job is going to do it for you. God bless, you know, go for it, because I know it’s not going to make you happy. But at least I don’t have you, you know, Mr. Grumpy Pants sitting in the office, two doors down from me, and not really doing what we want to do customer service wise. So that’s the way I that’s the way I’ve sort of approached it. I mean, the only really want I mean, I’ve had a couple of people who’ve left to go take state jobs. And if that’s their vision, I can’t compete with, you know, a 40 hour state, you know, type of employment. And it’s interesting, the only lawyer who really was crushing to me in the last five years who left, came back a week later, and said, I started the job and said, this is not the life for me, what can we do I want to be your partner. And I said, well, great, because I wanted to have this conversation, and then you dropped on me, you were leaving. So it all kind of worked out. So you know, and I’ve tried to insulate myself, you know, and I know, Bill, you’ve got this persona of the lawman, and you mark it that, you know, I was nervous about bringing on any, any other attorneys and, and developing a name for them in my community. So, you know, I branded my first other attorney as Lady DUI. And interestingly, like Seth says, she’s the one who stayed with me the longest, and she’s still here to partner and, and she’s crushing it, you know, and I built other brands to avoid the associate leaving and taking that revenue line away from them, if you build up, you know, spend 1000s and hundreds of 1000s and educating them and building their brand name, and then they leave, that stuff’s all gone. So I mean, what do you what do you say about that? I mean, you’ve got to invest in your team, but you know, it’s you build a brand around them, or do you make the brand your firm and they just happen to be a part of it, guys, what would you say in that situation?
I made the shift. You know, to me actually want to get out of my name. It’s I’ve been around a long time, but I’ve now made making the shift. So if you’ve, you know, we’re all so busy. We don’t have time to even look at everyone’s social media. But right now, you know, we, we are highlighting every attorney individually. We’re talking about their achievements. Were sharing their reviews, I don’t share them enough on my personal page, but I’ve started doing that I want to build their brands up individually, because I’m proud of them. That’s actually the first thing. I know from again, I’m not talking from business, I’m talking about my heart. But I’m proud because I’m associated with some really, really amazing lawyers. So for instance, this guy Bryce the other day got a murder case dropped. And, and, and he won another case, because of COVID. You know, the courts have suspended speedy trial, he got a motion for discharge, of course which that means for the lawyers that aren’t criminal basically got the case dismissed. Because the time and these are smart guys, there, they are lawyers that are 40 years old. They’re lawyers that got 15-20 years of experience, some of them 10-12 years, some of them are board certified. I want to share them. Because it’s almost like when you do good things, and you do charity, it rubs off. So I you know, I But Jay, as I’m listening to you, yeah, I would be devastated if those guys leave every time the other people have left, but I rebound quickly, because I’m kind of like, I don’t take it personally. And I think that’s part of it. I also, I just want to give you another thing, you know, when we have employees actions mattered more than words, I think in the beginning, because we mark it sometimes I bullshit too much without following through on stuff, for instance, your core values, and then you’re not consistent with them. I’ve learned over the last year or so and I’m still trying to put this into play that your, your employees think about the action. So for example, you want to talk about value. If you have an excellent lawyer that leaves your firm, how cool would it be? And my firm administrator, you know, her Sarah, and Zara, my wife did not really down with this, I invited the same ex-employee back to the Christmas parties he had wears a torn red shirt, we do that we turn. Yeah, I know. But I’m talking about No, but I’m talking about a firm Christmas party that’s not open to the public not understood. And you bring your I’m not saying you don’t do it, I’m just saying by bringing these ex employees back, you’re not afraid that they’re going to say anything, or hey, you know, they’re nasty.
Of course, it’s self selecting, right? The ones that leave in a storm are probably not part of that group. But anybody that your alumni come, that’s the part where, to me, those people that come and say, I want to set up shop in town, you know, the odds of them doing it, and building a marketing machine like Jay is so remote, to me, you’re much more likely to have them as an ally, if you speak to them kindly over the next decade, you know, and similarly, if there’s a way to keep the alumni look at the big firms, they spend so much time working on their alumni networks, they have entire people dedicated to it. Now, in b2b world, there’s a lot more cross referral. But it seems to me that we, that smaller confirms, are very often short sighted that you’re they can be disciples of you, rather than competitors, sometimes both, but that it is something that if cultivated, can, you know, pay huge dividends?
Yeah- go ahead, Bill.
No, go ahead, Jay.
So one of the things that’s interesting to me, at least that I have found is that there are a significant number of younger lawyers, I’d say lawyers that are now probably, you know, in their early 30s, who maybe not necessarily ever wanted to be a lawyer, but went to law school, because they were told, Oh, you’re smart, you should be a lawyer, and got so used to people telling them what they should do. And so they came out with a history degree or a marketing degree, and, and decided instead of going and getting a job, they were going to go to law school. And it was impressive to their families, that they were going to become a lawyer. And so they never really stopped to think do I actually want to do the practice of law. And that’s, unfortunately, I think that’s, you know, I’ve had a couple of people who probably never should have become lawyers that have left to take other jobs, because that was more in line with their vision. And it was, you know, something that was more manageable, you know.
That’s more of a hiring piece to me, like I’ve always, like, if I could wave a magic wand, I love the people that are like second to eighth years, third to eighth years, they’re in a spot, they’ve done that type of law for a number of years. And so that, you know, you’ve sort of eliminated those risks, or just like hiring right out of college, we’ve been burned a lot, both in Price Benowitz and in Blushark, where people come out, and we have people that end up leaving our place and going home to live with their parents and not having a job, they don’t want to work. So the idea is, if you know, to me, I always look at our hires as almost self selecting, we know who we want, does this person want what we have to sell for us, it’s we’re going to eliminate the marketing, the admin, the account, we’re going to take all that off their plate so they can practice if they don’t want to practice it’s the wrong place to be and looking for that there. Again, easier said than done. But to me, that’s the essence if you get the right people in the way and you have the best chance of that extended tail.
Oh, absolutely. Bill?
Yeah, as long as your processes, if you get the, obviously if you get the right people and that’s why sometimes, you know, I don’t know about you guys, but we do like three interviews sometimes that people will bring them into the office. We’ll have a drink at a bar. And then we’ll do it in another third location. What we haven’t done is had other lawyers interview them, which is now I’m thinking probably, yeah, I know, I don’t do that more.
To me, I, it’s more time, I hope I don’t get sued for it. But the analogy is dating, it’s over and over again, like, you wouldn’t just like meet somebody for a drink, and then go get married. The idea is, it’s taking those basic steps, Jay, and I have this 10 Hack episode coming up. And one of the things I am a huge proponent of is shadow days doesn’t work as well with lawyers necessarily, certainly with staff. But the idea is, okay, we like you, you’ve interviewed well, twice, we’ve had a meal. But do you want to do what we’re doing? Are you going to, you know, do you want to drink this Kool Aid? And if you know, if the end of the day, it’s not even, you’re not looking to see what you can’t tell that much from a day. But what are the questions being asked? Are they engaged? Like, do you want what we’re selling?
I think it to have someone come back in three times to meet with you on an interview, and most people are doing one, maybe two, and you’ve even stretched it out to four that shows a lot about the person that’s trying to interview. There’s, they’re they’re either, you know, they’re either hungry? Or, you know, assuming they’re good quality. They’re like, you know, there are people that feel entitled, like why would I have to do that? I’ve had interviews where on the second interview, they basically why do we got to come back again.
We think a lot of ourselves, but our former firm administrator, Brian, you know, he would get people in a room away from me, and he gets them to say things that were, you know, did he come back to me said this person doesn’t want the job. And I thought this person was all, was all giddy, so you have people outside of your, you know, you know, that that’s not you, that may have a different sensibility, I think incredibly valuable because that that different perspective, and that the issue, you get oh, they truism, you know, hire slow fire fast. I mean, we are all guilty of it now, you know, is the one time where the, where the we have we finally six months ago, we had to hire quickly because with the person be off the market, if we didn’t do it quickly. Now, I feel like we finally have the luxury to go back to the Bill Umansky model, and really have those touches, and was genius, if you can actually do which is tough, because it takes away from family time. But a drink? Seeing somebody outside of the interview environment incredibly valuable. Good for you, Bill.
I think but you know, Jay, when you were talking about this, it’s funny. When I look at my kids, and I look at my wife, and you know, the stuff that, you know, for our family, I still look at these attorneys that are leaving, that I in general had a relationship with had, and there’s negatives, you know, sometimes you’re too friendly with your lawyers that work with you. It becomes like a family. And then some of them feel like they can bitch more and do that. But I’d rather have all of that. And when I look at them leaving I looked at as like, what is that opportunity for their family and my family together, even though we’re completely separate, even though they’re working against me in the sense that they’re going to take your case. And I gotta tell you, there’s nothing better than getting a referral from a co defendant from a former. And you don’t mind by the way, my, my former associates look out for each other more than me. So what they’ll do is they’ll text me go have a referral, fee affirm, but I’m going to give it to this associate this lawyer who I’m friends with, so that she can get credit. But Bill, I want you to know I’m sending it to you. And it feels good. And it feels good to give them back something you know, like so when they open new offices, you go over there in person, drop off some scotch or drop off a gift and sit with them. And then what I usually do, I’m like, where’s my scotch? So we have a bar here, and they’ll come by and they’ll drop off a bottle, for example. And we and we have an open door policy for these associates that come back in. It’s so funny, when you have a new receptionist don’t always stay with us for reasons. They come in and they’re like, who is this guy and they’ll like he’ll just go in and sit at the bar. Like, we got a stranger in the building. But, but you know, those feelings are good, because you know, like, so I look at that same picture my family and say, it hurts, don’t bullshit, it hurts when they leave. But I’m also like, they’re gonna do their own thing. They made their mind up, we’ve communicated all this process, and then at least they told me what they were thinking. And they’re going to ,it’s going to be an opportunity for both of us. So and I know, it’s just looking at the positive side of it, I think.
So I gotta ask you, Bill and Seth, I want you to weigh in on this. You know, you maintain these relationships with the clients. And I know both of you spend a lot of time working hard in your systems in your marketing and doing what it takes to make your firm functional. What is it like to get that former attorney to come back to you six months, nine months, 18 months later and say, Wow, you made it look so easy. It’s not. You know that, that, that is the thing that I love getting out you know that that makes me feel good, that they’re like, you know, I was working for you. I’m doing my thing and thought I can handle opening, opening a law firm. This isn’t that hard to do. Oh It’s everything seems to be working just fine. Tell me about some of those experiences because I think that’s, that’s telling for people that, you know, when you have a good operation, things may seem like they’re smooth sailing, but those legs, you know, the duck is smooth on the top of the water, but the legs are moving a million miles an hour underneath.
You guys gotta wait to your kids become teenagers, and then you’re gonna see the same shit. You’re gonna tell them, You’re gonna jump the gun because you’re a cool parent. You are like your dad and mom. And you’re like, Listen, I’m going to show you. I was there the other night, nine o’clock, Rachel, one of the lawyers in the back and she’s pulling her hair out her neck hurts because I’m so stressed out. I’m like, done. I’m like bomb stressed, I gotta pay $200,000 overhead this month. Let me explain why that’s stressful. And blah, blah, listening. They’re like your kids. But I swear to God when they go out on their own. It’s the greatest feeling like Zach’s 21 It goes, Dad, you know, like I hadn’t worked on this project all night. So honestly, that that, you know, I’m laughing since you said that because it is a great feeling. But it’s so frustrating because you want them to get it. But they’re not going to get it until they live it, just like your teens. Like, how old’s your oldest kids?
My oldest is 10.
13.
Yeah, just wait, wait til they’re 16.
I already, I already get it because I’m already going through this with a 13-year-old teenager all of a sudden, it’s hellish. But no, I get it, I don’t always get that right away. Sometimes they do. But generally, it’s years later till they went to a place. And then the first partner didn’t work out. And there’s a name change and a pivot and this and that. And then you see cool ones, you know, former associate who left that was I can’t put in the category of, of somebody who was we stayed in close touch with but got to reconnect through serendipity the other day, and they had made a career pivot to another area of law that seemed like a genius move for them based on their personality, based on the market. And so you know, goes back to what you were saying before, like you want those people to be out there. And look, I gen this, we haven’t talked about this, but there is we can sugarcoat the exit. But any breakup of any sort, going back to the dating analogy, the other end of the relationship, there’s that moment, and look, there’s gonna be an economic component about how much somebody really turns the screws on you. Because as you know, the ethics laws don’t make it great for business owners. So if you know when you’re in those moments, there is very often some touchy stuff that goes on, you try to keep it copacetic. But depending on how much somebody pushes economically, it can affect or how much of how dickish they are. But I just had one of those, one of the guys who left it was pretty good. He may, he did a lot of good work to help make that exit good. But it was definitely stressful. And got to have just one of those nice six months later conversations the other day, where you’re like, you know what, we made it through those storms. And now this is a guy that he was great when he was there. Breakups are tough. And I think that anybody who says otherwise, you know, those early moments where you don’t know what you’re about to write a massive check to them as they leave, which can be really, really hurtful and a bunch of different ways. But that if you can make that 360 back to this is the great guy that I live with for 10 years and love being with so that they are now you know that greatness is still on the outside, to me, that’s the win win.
Yeah. And, and there’s also you forgot to mention, because you’re absolutely right, not just the money. But what about the existing clients, and especially if they’re not taking the clients, and you’ve got to deal with the clients, and you got to switch them to another lawyer, then you may not even have the capacity. So you got to hire another lawyer or push it on another associates. There’s all those headaches as well. And oh, yeah. Right? And that, and, and-
And that’s one less headache, though. Meaning that to me, again, you know, Jay and I have been on both sides of that. But when you, when you sit there and you take a massive economic hit, because you like we know the three of us, right, three great marketers who have been able to bring cases in, and one of the things you just referred to, which was I think the thing I get more often than anything is like, oh, yeah, getting cases isn’t so easy. And that the fact that I had a steady stream of cases, I kind of took for granted what I was with you. That’s what I get more than anything. So it’s that exit, and I sort of talked to people in the way in and again goes back to dating, if you met a girl in college, and she’s like, I’m dating somebody, but I’m gonna break up to them for to go out with you. That’s never a good side. And I feel like if somebody’s coming here, and they’re like, Hey, what’s your book of business worth? I’m looking at what their next year will be not what can they do as a land grab to bring to me? And then there’s not there’s no real tail on that. You know, to me, I want to, if somebody is looking to basically take advantage, the former player, I’m under no illusions that that’s going to be the same way on the way out. So I genuinely want people who are not looking at it that way. And I assume you guys have dealt with that both in both directions.
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing is, is that how they treat other people is how they’re going to treat you in the end because I think for the most part, people are exactly who they are. And it’s very difficult for them to change, you know, tiger can’t change their stripes type of thing. If, if that’s who they are, you know, there’s going to come a point where you’re going to be on the receiving end. So if you know that going in and you’re willing to accept that risk, that’s one thing. But I like to think we live with a higher purpose. I think my biggest thing is, you know, even even during this Corona time, I’ve had a number of messages from some of our clients saying, you know, this client is giving us a hard time I, they just don’t get it. And I said, Hey, you fire the client. You know, I, if you’re telling me that this is not a good client for our firm, and I’ve never talked to that client, I’ll take your word for it. And let’s get rid of the client and part ways. As best as-
We could do an entire show on that, Jay. Bill, I love your thoughts sort of a final round, because, you know, taking everything that’s going on, the extra normal strain of running a firm, huge, the ups and downs, emotional roller coaster this time massive, either with Jay, but whether it’d be a Price Benowitz, or it’d be a Blushark, if there’s a situation where we can’t make somebody happy with a reasonable amount of effort, like that is not worth it for the staff. Right? I want the staff to know lawyers, and account people at Blushark, if somebody is abusive to the point where it’s hurting your ability to get up and go to work every day, or even incrementally getting there. You know, it’s so hard to get and keep great talent, that to me, that’s the reason that I’m doing this, not just the economics of it being inefficient, but I don’t want to burn people out. And it’s so easy to do, in today’s environment. Bill?
Yeah. And I would, I would close that by telling you that that was probably a huge weakness for me as a leader. I was looking at you Seth and Jay, Tyson, Jim is you all make mistakes, but you learn very rapidly from your mistakes. And I don’t mean like Jays mistakes, we will try so many different things. That’s marketing, but I’m talking about just generally, Jay learns, Seth, you learn from me, I’m like stubborn. So one of the things that I didn’t learn was that being a leader, required to have some backbone and the ability to say, you know, what, I don’t need everyone to like me, and I, including my employees, that I want to have a relationship that I actually love them, and I want them to succeed here and elsewhere. But I feel like, that’s part of when you have the relationships with these lawyers. And you see them not responding in a positive way. And you see, especially with COVID, and life’s short, and your family and all that stuff, you’ve got to have the stones to correct or address the behavior directly, especially with tough litigators, who they’re tough. And they’re gonna look at you and be like, you know, you’re just a marketer now, so, you know, you don’t seem to have to look them straight in the eye, you have to tell them what your expectations are. And then you have to act accordingly. If there’s not a change of behavior in a positive way, that’s the toughest thing that I’ve learned when it deals with lawyers. And I, you know, like you said, I feel that all of these guys are partners to me. But I respect them so much that sometimes, for example, you know, they don’t want to do things that you think need to happen, and have that initial phone call with the client within three days, because they’re busy, and they’ll push it off, or we can go into all that kind of stuff. But if you’re not, if you’re not talking to them, and telling them what you want, and what your clarifications are, and then ultimately, if they’re not listening, then get rid of them. You know, that’s probably the toughest part about this.
That reminds me of something that was from the undercover billionaire show that I’ve been thinking and struggling with a lot recently, or working towards, I should say, the idea that was said on, on that show that the leader works for the employees. And that you know, and that our job, you say you’re not just a marketer, but the idea is, for each call, when I speak to a lawyer, what can I do? What, I have all these resources, what can I do to help you do your job better? Not always perfect. Sometimes they ask for stuff I can’t do. But if I’m trying more and more about learning, that’s been the thing that I’ve worked on the most of late, which is, how do I make myself that support person, rather than just saying, hey, I need this done, which I think was many years how I push things along and it works, it gets things done, but the idea that you’re there as a support mechanism, I think is something that is definitely like the work in progress.
Yeah, absolutely.
So nice seeing you guys. Like literally like it’s just this COVID thing sucks.
It really, it really does Bill you know, I, I love getting to see you once or twice a year. And it just, not being able to do it is, is been crushing. But the good thing is, is that you know, with social media, I’m able to see what you’re doing. I love some of the stuff that you’re doing with your law man’s lounge. I love the stuff that you’re doing. I mean, you know, we could we didn’t really have time to talk about it today. But you know, you’re big on the community marketing you, you’re big on the second chance stuff. That’s all stuff that I think really sort of shows your character and how you believe in people. And I think that’s one of the reasons why you’ve been so successful is that yeah, there’s a whole digital marketing components or whatever we do, but at the end of the day, you know, people hire lawyers that they connect with. And you, you’re able to do that with people. And so, you know, you look at these people, you look at hiring for growth, make sure that you can connect with the people to, you know, some people say I just want automatons that come in, they execute the work, and they go home, and they build their hours and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, you need to have people that can connect with people so that your business can grow.
That’s so true. And you just then have to also be aware and willing to embrace the risk that when you have individuals that are able to connect, you know, that they stay with you, as long as they’re gonna stay with you. But they also may want to do their own thing to fulfill their own vision. And those people that can connect with clients, that can be the economic boom that you’re talking about, Seth. So, but I mean, that it’s, but I’d rather have that and I, you know, that’s the vision for me and my firm, I’d rather have my laurels connecting with people and and feeling a two way street because it does mean growth, especially if you’re not doing billboard or TV advertising or stuff like that.
I got one last thing to say. Well, yeah, I got one last thing to say here, though, is that one of the things that that I like to look at my firm like as a sort of like a professional sports franchise, right. And it’s gonna be around for a long time.
Hopefully not the Jets.
No, definitely, well, we’ve had our Jet seasons, that’s for sure. There’s but fumbles all over the place in my firm, but, but in reality, you know, we bring in some players for a season or two that are going to help us, you know, take it to the next level. We have some people you know, like the Yankees will bring in someone like Derek Jeter, who will try to build a franchise around, you know, but you’ve got to recognize is that your firm is a living and breathing thing. And not everyone’s supposed to be there for the long haul. Some people are just there to solve a problem and move on. And if you take that mindset that, you know, you want to compete as best you compete right now. And maybe that’s having a good firm system with hiring young lawyers, maybe it’s hiring people that are experienced litigators, because you’ve got a bunch of stuff on your desk, but you don’t plan on them for being there for longer than five years. It’s really sort of one of the things that you got to kind of look at what hands you have and play it the best way you can, rather than try to say, this is the only way I’m doing it and and I’m going to do it this way, no matter what, because that’s when you wind up with a franchise like the Jets.
That’s, yep.
Nobody wants to be the Jets. I mean, I hate being a Jets fan. My kids wonder why it’s I funny story. My son asked me why why are we Jets fans, everybody else seems to be happy on Sunday. And you’re not I said, Son, I’m teaching you how to have a broken heart early in life. So when the girl starts breaking your heart, you know what it feels like? And you can get over it. Because I mean, I was texting with my other Jets fans this past Sunday saying so who do you like in the draft this year? Because this season’s done.
At least the Jets are palying in front of five fans now. Yeah.
Well Bill, thank you so much. This was, this made the the distance of COVID that little bit closer and this was, this was awesome. So thanks for your time, Bill.
Yeah Bill, thanks.
Seriously miss both of you guys. Yeah, seriously miss both of you, So. Alright.
Soon enough, Bill. We’ll be together again. I can’t wait.
Alright dude, see you. Bye!
Alright, bye. Wow, okay, so Seth, another phenomenal interview. I gotta tell you each week it gets better and better spending even a few minutes with Billy Umansky will put a smile on your face. We got to spend about 45 minutes with him. And just phenomenal you know, I can never get enough of the law man. What were your takeaways?
No, look, he is somebody I’ve always looked to. He’s found he’s been the half glass half full. He’s one of those people that’s figured out relationships, he invests a ton. We saw some, you know, in general what I think he shows is that over time that if you give and give and give it comes back. It’s not perfect. We all have the, the episodes that don’t work, but I love the way that he shares and tries to put everything out on leave everything out there. And that you know that he’ll, he’ll take that at hand once everything is pushed out.
Yeah, I mean, just just great stuff. Once again, this has been another phenomenal week, I’m really happy with where we’re going with this and seems to be every week we’re getting nuggets that people can take away, you can grow your firm. I know at my firm, Ruane attorneys, I’ve gotten back, listen to some of the interviews that we’ve done, pulled out some nuggets, shared it with the attorneys in my office, and we’re all really growing from it. Same with Firm Flex, you know, it’s really been great. I know you with Blushark, as well as Price Benowitz have remarked to me some of the stuff that you’ve taken away from these interviews. And I think everybody who’s one of our listeners can find a nugget or two that they can put down. I’ve actually started on my phone, I don’t know it’s floating around here somewhere. I started on my phone actually just a notepad, Apple notes thing of my takeaways from all the stuff because I want to be able to go back to it and go back to it go back to it. And you know, it’s amazing what you can find, you know, two or three weeks later, you something resonates with you can really roll with it. So, with that, I think we’re gonna end the show. That sounds good to you, Seth?
That sounds great.
Okay, so here’s what we need, folks. We need more comments from you down below what your position is about the amount abundance mindset if you’re going to help out that person who’s going to compete with you? Or if you say no, wait, let us know in the comments. Let’s get this conversation going. And Seth and I will be monitoring it and responding and kind of like we’ve been doing all week. This is a really important topic and I think we can use all of your input on it. In the meantime, if you want to take us on the go, you can subscribe to our podcast, the Maximum Growth Live podcast on any one of the podcasting platforms that are out there. We’re also available through Syndication on the Maximum Lawyer podcast. I am Jay Ruane, founder of Firm Flex as well as Ruane Attorneys. He is Seth Price of Blushark and from Price Benowitz, and we are your hosts of Maximum Growth Live. I’d like to thank you for being with us. We’ll see you again on Tuesday. Remember, two shows a week now, Tuesday and Thursday. So you can get a lot of Seth, I get a lot of Seth, and I love it, Seth. So we’ll be great. We’ll see you soon. Have a phenomenal weekend and be on the lookout for replays of this show all weekend long in the Maximum Lawyer channel. Thank you and have a great weekend folks. Take it easy.
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