Today, join Seth Price and Jay Ruane for a sit down with Michael Gerber, author of the E-Myth series of book and inspiration to thousands of entrepreneur attorneys. In this episode they talk about building our brand, scaling a law firm, the role of systems and how to approach your practice with the right mindset.
Hello, hello! This is Jay Ruane, here with another edition of Max Growth Live. And boy, do we have a show for you today. We have a phenomenal guest. But before we get into the guest, let me see how I’m pointing. Seth? How am I pointing? I’m pointing to Seth Price, down there in Del Boca Vista, Florida. I think that’s where you’re at right now. Phase 2, Phase 3, Del Boca Vista. But we both-
2.5.
2.5. We both have smiles on our face. Because what we have in store today is something that is going to, I think, just be a legendary interview. Tell us what we got on tap.
We got Michael Gerber. He is the author of The E-Myth Revisited. This is a guy who has preached systems and elevating yourself to work on your business for years. So I feel like this is my holiday gift to Jay. Bringing this in.
When you told me you got this guy, I mean, it was I mean, it was my smile. And I mean, this is, I mean, I know it’s the first day of Hanukkah, but, but thank you for giving this gentile a gift. Because this is, I’ve been really excited about this, and I really can’t wait to get to this interview. I have so many questions about the role of systems, about being the, you know, the pull of being an entrepreneur, between being a technician, especially when it comes to law. My mind has been racing, I was up in the middle of the night scribbling down questions. So I’m really excited about the day.
And look, I feel like when Jim and Tyson created the Maximum Lawyer community, like this is sort of like the epicenter. So to be able to bring this as part of Maximum Lawyer community to the greater group, just so exciting. Because again, we talk about it on a regular basis, I am sure we are not near the level that Michael wants us at. But the idea that we are continuously striving towards that elevation of working on your business, adding systems. Let’s get him out here as soon as we can.
So what we’re gonna do is let’s take a quick break; you’ll hear from our sponsors. And then when we come back, we’re gonna have Michael Gerber, author of The E-Myth series of books. We’ll be right back with this edition of Maximum Growth Live.
We are thrilled to have Michael Gerber, the man, the myth, the e-legend, the author of The E-Myth Revisited and The E-Myth for Attorneys. Welcome, Michael. We’re thrilled to have you here.
I’m delighted to be here, guys, thank you.
You know, our, for ourselves and for our audience, we often reflect back on your words that you’ve written when we think about how we should be running our business, versus, rather, how we are running it. I would love to hear your perspective. I first heard you back in the early 2000s in a YEO event before it was, and it was a seminal moment for me where you were like, “Hey, just slice the bread and this will work.” I remember speaking to you at the after party with your driver, you were on a road trip where you had this driver that brought you from place to place. And it was it was just so, so inspirational. But you’ve spoken to thousands of entrepreneurs. First, for our audience, most people know and have read your stuff. But for people that don’t, who is Michael Gerber and what is the E-Myth?
Well, Michael Gerber is the guy who created the E-Myth. And I created the E-Myth as a complete surprise to me, because a friend of mine asked me to visit one of his business clients. Now my friend had a small ad agency in Silicon Valley. And he said that one of his clients was having difficulty converting leads into sales. And he asked me if I would visit with his client and see what the problem was. And I said to my friend, Ace, that was his name, it still is, it’s my brother in law. I said, “Ace, why me? I don’t know anything about business.” And he said, “Michael, you know more than you think you do.” I said, “Well, if you would like me to talk to the guy, I’d be glad to talk to the guy.” What can I lose? So I went to meet this guy now, I sit down with a guy in his office. And he says to us, fellows, I’m gonna take off for an hour. Mike, go get to know Bob, and Bob get to know Michael, and let’s see what happens. And he leaves. So the first question, Bob says, “Well, Michael, what do you know about my business?” I said nothing, Bob. He looks a little concerned. He said, “Well, if you don’t know anything about my business, what do you know about our product?” And I said, less than that, Bob. He said, “Well, Michael, if you don’t know anything about my business or anything about my product, how can you help me?” And I said, I have no clue Bob. But Ace thinks I can and we got an hour to kill, so let’s find out. So we started. And I started with the assumption that I didn’t know anything about business, and he did, because he owned one, you got that? He must know something about, otherwise, how could he start one? That was my mind. Just before I ever started doing anything with business, I was 40 years old. So hear me, all this started at 40. Pure accident. So I started to ask Bob questions, “So Bob, tell me what you do?” And it goes on and on. And the more answers he gives me, the more I discover they’re all anecdotal. And I suddenly begin to understand that he may not know something about business, forget about his business. But I’m beginning to learn that I do. And the thing that I began to learn that I do, so I understood that business is a system. But you understand, in all my years, at 40, I had come to the conclusion that everything is a system. All of my work, all of my studying, all of my joy as a musician, a jazz saxophone player, as a poet, as a wanting to be philosopher, as a spiritual pursuer of life. Everything’s a system. Every place I turn, it’s a system. But I began to see that Bob didn’t know it was a system. And that was Bob’s problem. And so I said, Bob, it’s a system. And you don’t have one. You’ve got guys out selling what you produce, and every single one of them are doing it differently. So there is no selling system in your business. And he said, “Well, do you know how to create one?” I said, “Sure, Bob.” So, Ace picks me up, and he says, “So what happened?” I said, “Well, Bob just hired me.” He said, “What do you mean, Bob just hired you? As what?” I said, “As a business consultant.” He said, “But you don’t know anything about business. I thought you told me that you didn’t know anything.” And I said, “Well, I didn’t think I did. But now I know I do.” And so that was my first experience as a business consultant. Fixing Bob’s business meant fixing Bob. It had nothing to do with the business, you understand that? It was Bob. Bob was the problem in Bob’s business, because Bob didn’t understand what the job was, to, as I now call it, go to work on your business, go to work on your practice, go to work on your selling system, go to work on your client fulfillment system, go to work on it and turnkey it so you can scale it, replicate it in the hands of countless others. And that’s the problem with every legal firm. You understand that’s the problem with every legal firm, it is in fact, there is no system through which we do it. You come expert or you don’t. And Murray is an expert, and John is an expert. And Judy is an expert, and Jill is an expert, but each and every one of them do it differently. And so if you’re to create a legal firm, you’re creating, in quotes, hopefully experts, or the humdrum center of it, but that doesn’t work. And that’s what I’ve learned. So what’s the E-Myth? The E-Myth is simply a philosophy of business, for how to go to work on a business to transform that business into a practical practicing model, that literally be scaled infinitely, if that was your intention. Just like McDonald’s. So that’s why I say McDonald’s is the most successful small business in the world. And I’m saying every legal practice could become another McDonald’s, just like, well, you understand.
I, look, we struggle with it every day. And Jay is going to talk about systems in a minute. But I still remember from your speeches, you know, that at McDonald’s, you take the burgers out, you put them on the grill, you flip them, everything is labeled. You’ve spoken all over the world, you’ve talked to people of all different types of businesses, shapes and sizes. What are some of the biggest obstacles you see people not getting past, which would make them most effective at implementing the E-Myth?
The biggest obstacle in the legal practice, the biggest obstacle in an accounting practice, the biggest obstacle in a meat market, is the owner. And they’re conditioned. They’re conditioned to think in a very specific way, and they can’t break free of that conditioning. It’s a habit. And it’s not only a habit, it’s an addiction. So truly, how do you break through someone’s addiction? They have to agree they’re addicted. In short, they can’t stop doing what they do in the way that they do it. They just can’t. They’re addicted. They get up and automatically, that’s what, they do that automatically. That’s what they do. Well, what has to happen in a business in order for that to change is we’ve got to come to grips with that fact, with the primary decision maker in that company or that practice. Whatever kind of business it is, doesn’t matter. Because it’s identical, the same, you understand, it’s the same in law as it is in accountancy, it’s the same in accountancy, as it is in chiropractic. It’s the same, doesn’t matter what one does in that business. Everybody suffers the same.
Are there any techniques you’ve seen over the years that have helped people break through from, let’s say, the manager to the entrepreneur?
Well, you mean, are there any strategies that I have learned how to use…
Or you’ve seen other people using more effectively…
And we have effectively enabled other people to use in order to shift that attention. There’s a very neat strategy, and it really requires someone to take a shift, philosophical shift, and understanding about people. There was an extraordinary man a generation ago by the name of Gurdjieff, that spelled G, U, R, D, J, I, E, F ,F, a spiritual master. And Gurdjieff was want to say there is no ‘I, I.’ There are only a subset of little ‘I’s. But when each one of them wake up, they say ‘I’ as though the capital I. So as a strategy, what I would say to you, I would say to understand that every single one of those little ‘I’s has an addiction. One ‘I ‘has an addiction for the pretty penny. Another ‘I’ has an addiction for busy, busy, busy. Another ‘I,’ you understand that you you can see the ‘I’s poking out of your experience in your life all the time. You get to know them.
My mind is racing with that right now.
You get to know them. Here’s the strategy. I am. I am the higher one of all of us. I am the strategist for all of us. I am the creator for all of us. I am the one who will transform the state of whatever it is I’m committed to transform, to create the great result I am here to create. And in order for that to happen, I have to take charge of all the others. And so I’m going to give each of them a name. So the pretty penny, I’ll call Murray. And the busy, busy busy, I’ll call John. And when Murray jumps into the office, because Murray’s excited about a pretty penny, I have to say to Murray, back off, we’re not doing that today, and take charge. Now, if you were to do that every day for only a month, everything changes. There’s a great book. Really, really great book. In fact, it was given as a gift to me just recently, but it’s a book called Principles. So are you familiar with this book?
Absolutely. I’ve read it. I’ve read it twice, actually. And my copy is all note, noted up.
Ray Dalio, what a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant book, he’s speaking to that, that I’ve just spoken about. But what he did in his life is to organize his life in such a way that I am in charge of it. But I’m not just in love with it. It has to make sense. So there’s a fundamental set of principles regarding the work we do when we go to work on what we’re here to create, rather than just busy, busy, busy, busy, doing it, doing it, doing it, doing it, every single day. To work on it demonstrates that there’s a distance between the two of us, what is working and what isn’t, and me. So I now have an ability to see it, as though from above, and the process separate from it. So I’m not called by it constantly, to be consumed by it constantly, which lessens the addictive nature of most of our behavior. Very, very cool.
You know, we talked about systems off the top, and you may not realize it, but Jay Ruane is known as Mr. System. So I wanted him to sort of jump in and talk to you because he is somebody who is, you know, taking the E-Myth to heart, and, as well as anybody I know, created systems for his firm.
I think part of my problem is that little ‘I’ that is jazzed about systems really sort of pushes everything else away. When I can sit down and write out a system from beginning to end, and then watch somebody execute it and all the questions are answered, and they can just do it without my involvement. I get so giddy. But I want to talk to you a little bit, Mr. Gerber, about systems because…
…please call me Michael.
Oh, Michael. There is a natural inclination among lawyers to be pulled constantly to the technician role, because of their training as lawyers. And a lot of lawyers have a problem with separating the legal services business owner ‘I’ with the law, career, professional avocation ‘I.’ And you’ve seen service providers across many different systems, many different genres of business, and I’m just wondering if you have any words of wisdom for our audience, that tends to be mostly lawyers, on things that they can do to sort of understand that you have this duality within you and you have to give each, each segment of your personality the opportunity and the tools to bloom, using systems to develop your practice?
Well, it’s an incredibly important question and an incredibly important problem. Attorneys are licensed to practice law. That’s a technician’s role. You might say it’s a higher standard of work, it’s a profession, just as medicine, etc and so forth. But each, the doctor, the attorney, the accountant, the psychiatrist, etc and so forth, are trained, taught to work. They do work, law, medicine, etc and so forth, like any technician, like an electrician, like a plumber, like a truck driver, etc and so forth. The difference, obviously, the attorney is assured, you’re a professional, ergo, they’re not. So that, for a time, inspires a young attorney to practice, practice, practice, practice, and to get better and better and better at practicing. But there’s no one sitting there speaking to that attorney about the layers of performance that are absolutely critical in order for that attorney to grow beyond just being a technician. Nobody does that. It’s not built into the practice of law to do that. So obviously, in order for something to shift, for the attorneys in your practice to do that, something has to shift within you to make that occur. And that’s where the innovation takes place. So there is an absolutely brilliant opportunity for innovation to occur in practices of whatever form, whether it be medicine, whether it be law, and on and on and on and on. But it has to be instilled within the practice, in order for the practice to take form in a way that leads to the growth of the participants within that practice. Now understand that means for the practice to grow. Where does the practice go? When a practice is designed to grow, the practice becomes a business. Understand, the two are completely different. A business, in our language, is a subset of practices. So effectively, if we look at the path that we have created, we call the Eightfold Path, all of this starts at the very beginning of the Eightfold Path. The first step in the Eightfold Path is the dream. I have a dream, Dr. Martin Luther King said. There is no dream in most practicing attorneys. There’s simply work and getting more work and getting paid more for the work that I do. So I go from $100 an hour, to $200 an hour, to $300 an hour, $800 an hour, and that’s the progression to demonstrate my evolution as a practicing attorney. Of course, I can become a partner. But, of course, partner is simply a practicing attorney doing other work. But nobody ever taught partners, in fact, what that other work really is. Because there is no business model that suggests that, just as in Principles by Dalio, that work is something other than what we believe it to be. You have to have a definition of work. The dream sets out the end game, it sets out the great result. So let’s say you’re going to begin the new practice of the future. The new practice of the future would be started with a dream, and then a vision, and then a purpose, and then a mission. .The dream, the vision, the purpose and the mission come together, created by the dreamer, the thinker, the storyteller and the leader. We’re beginning to create an entrepreneur within that attorney. An imagineer, as Walt Disney called it. You follow me?
Absolutely.
The imagineer is a dreamer, I have a dream, leads to a great result. A thinker, I have a vision of the practice that, in fact, will enable that dream to become a reality on the street. I’ve got a purpose, and that is to transform the state of whomever it is that we’re here to serve, and I have a mission, which is to design, build, launch and grow the system that’s absolutely critical for the dream to take place, for the vision to be manifest, for the purpose to become a reality, and for our lives to be transformed. That’s the first stage of this process, of applying the E-Myth model, you might say, to a legal practice. The next step is the job. The job is the client fulfillment system. Who’s working in the job? The attorney doing it, doing it, doing it, doing it, but you understand it’s a client fulfillment system, that that attorney is being trained, taught, inspired to master. This is how we do it here. This is how we do what here? This is how we do what we do here, every single time, etc and so forth. System-centric, system-centric, you follow me, we’re developing this model, system-centric. The next step[.
It sounds like my office. Like, this is me, this is me. I’m loving it. I’m loving it.
The next step is the practice. What’s the practice? The practice is the three-legged stool: lead generation, lead conversion, client fulfillment. It’s your franchise prototype. So we now take the client fulfillment system, we stick it into practice, and we generate a way to attract clients to be served by that client fulfillment system. What kind of clients? Specific kinds of clients that our system has been designed to serve. So you see, we’re not just doing law, we’re doing a very specific kind of law, for a very specific reason, with a very specific kind of client, to produce a very specific kind of result. It works, I don’t have to. It works, I don’t have to. The system is the solution. Now, we built our franchise prototype, completely documented, as you’ve described, trained into our people, inspiring us to go beyond where we are because we’re growing to be scaled. The next step in that process is the business. The business is simply up to seven turnkey practices. Those can be seven attorneys in that office. Those could be seven legal practices that were opening up down the street. Doesn’t matter, it’s still a business. The business of an operating system, multiplied seven times. You follow me? Seven times. It’s a practice, practice, at the heart of a practice is an attorney. At the heart of that attorney is a system that practice uses, just like McDonald’s does. This is who we are, this is what we do, this is how we do it, this is how it works, this is what it produces when it’s finally done. Think about that. Once we’ve built the business, we’re now ready to replicate it, and make an enterprise. And an enterprise is simply up to seven turnkey businesses, which means 49 turnkey practices within a region, and this is how you grow a legal firm the E-Myth way. Turnkey, turnkey, turnkey. The only thing one would say about that is this is who we are, this is what we do, this is how we do it, and this is how and why it works. And we are now, have created, and now have created, a brand. A brand is like, this is a brand. Just, like anything is a brand or it’s not. It’s either a brand or it’s commodity. And if it’s, and if it’s a commodity, it’s the worst law in the world.
Yeah, if it’s not a brand, it’s a commodity. Boy, that’s a, that’s a very powerful statement that you gave us there. But let me ask you this. What would you say to the lawyers who say, well, every case is different? I can’t build a system in my practice, because, you know, you know, for me in criminal offense, one’s a bank robbery and one’s a drunk driving case. What would you say to that lawyer who says, I can’t build systems in my practice, because everything is different?
Well, first of all, everything isn’t different. Because if we go back over the last year, and look at all of everything that you’re describing, we can organize it into probably seven distinct things. Those seven distinct things then need to be orchestrated. They need to be orchestrated so we can excel at those seven distinct things. So we can become known as the people who excel at those seven distinct things because every single one of them works its way through in a very specific way. And you can’t tell me, no lawyer could tell me, that in fact, every case is different, because every case ain’t. When you start to look at every case from a systems perspective, you begin to see that, in fact, every case is the same. Murders are created by crazy people. Always. So you understand my point?
Absolutely, absolutely, Seth-
My point is when you’re looking for difference, you’ll always find it. When you’re looking for similarities, you always find them. So we must change our point of view, to begin to look for similarities, in order to create a company that can respond to those similarities in a way that nobody else has responded to them before.
Is there a scenario, you know, again, I, the law seems to be, and I’m sure you hear this in every sector, there are certain elements that are harder to apply than others when trying to sort of follow the E-Myth philosophy. Are there any points where you say, with more complicated that–.
Let me just say, when you said that, look for the easy ones. Look for the easy ones. Instead of becoming muck and miref up in the hard ones, yeah, but that’s what we got to do, that’s what we got to do. No, you don’t have to do anything. Here’s what you say in a business that describes it in the way that you’ve just done. You say, we don’t do that anymore. Or, you say, we’re going to transform the way that’s done to become the leaders in that marketplace. So, so they always come to us, because we’ve got it handled.
And the thing I’ve wondered and wanted to ask you about is, I get and live, to a certain extent, the philosophy you put out. Are there any examples with professional services be it law, accounting or otherwise, where the systems are in place, at the, at the marketing level, at the intake level, at the structure, where you can work on the business, but the widget, it, whether it be the billable hour or the work, is done by somebody where you are allowing that creativity but that you’re counting X number of billable hours or X number of flat fee cases within it? And that is there, is there ever a world where you you layer the system very strictly, but then have something that is less systematized that feeds into it?
Hear me, you’re trying to create a world because of the world you live in. The only thing that drives a question like that is yes, but could? It’s sort of like, yeah, but when you can’t that, could you in fact create it. So there’s some places where you don’t have to be systematized and other places where systems work. And the way you also put it is systems are strict. In other words, they control us. So it’s in a controlling world where systems work. And otherwise, we’re flexible, we’re liberal, we’re creative, ergo, a systems-based company isn’t creative. Now, I could take that point that you’ve just made, and I take this company, by Ray Dalio, who’s among the wealthiest men in the world, and whose business is among the top 10 most successful privately held companies ever created. But when you look at his book, and you look at the system-centric composure of the man and the model, you begin to see that, in fact, that feeling about systems is only borne by someone who finds systems to be imposing upon my freedom, upon my creativity. Where did that freedom and creativity come from? It usually came from chaos. So effectively, born in chaos, lives in chaos, excelled in chaos, and lives at the heart of chaos continuously, and will go to his grave saying I was free. But tell me, how can anybody proclaim their freedom, when in fact, they’re ruled every day by chaos?
Well, you know, I have an interesting point that I’d like to make. And I’d like to get your input.
On one thing, I just wanted to say, which just came to mind, which is, in fact, it’s chaos that creates the need for attorneys.
Well, that’s certainly true. That’s certainly true. One of the things that springs to my mind about this is that for those who relish the technician role that so many lawyers do, the use of systems actually allows you to elevate your mind and really think about the higher level legal processes and legal thoughts that you can make when you know everything below you is taken care of. So actually, for those who are approaching law, and want to be that technician, because of their drive to that, the role of systems can actually be liberating, in that respect, in that everything below you sort of gets taken care of, freeing your mind to think on high level thoughts and devise new strategies for cross-examination and new ways to approach a case. And that should be something that every lawyer should aspire to, is the system, is systemization of their practice, so that they can truly get to that higher level that next level of legal service providing, don’t you think?
You’re trying to sell systems thinking, you’re trying to sell us systems thinking because of all of your experience with attorneys who don’t want to deal with it. Hear me, it’s the way you start that relationship with an attorney that makes all the difference. It’s what happens in month one, month two, month three, month four, your practice is a school. You’re initiating a relationship with a young attorney, and you’re selecting those young attorneys based upon a model that you’ve created that suggests these are the elements that must exist within a practicing attorney in our firm. That’s one who aspires to grow beyond the practice of law. One who aspires to grow beyond the practice of law. I just want you to imagine a seminar called “Aspiring to grow beyond the practice of law.” And you’re doing this seminar for whom? For attorneys who are looking for a position in a great legal firm. Now, what legal firm in the world would ever suggest there’s something beyond the practice of law? Nobody imagined being the firm that suggests there’s something, something absolutely profoundly positive beyond the practice of law. Today, we’re going to discuss the process one goes through to discover what it means to lead a professional life. I’m Jay, you’re who you are, let’s get with it. And you begin the process. At the end of the process is: anybody who is inspired by what I’ve said please come talk to us. We’re always looking for new folks in our firm, who wish to grow beyond the practice of law, while creating the most magnificent legal practice on the planet. The two don’t seem to live together. We’re gonna show you how.
Awesome, I love it. Seth?
You know, one of the things that I’m curious about is, many of these things you talk about when you talk to people with existing law firms seem pretty daunting. When people have implemented the E-Myth to the highest level, do you see it retrofitting an existing organization? Or is it very often when you lay it out from the beginning that it has a better chance of hitting its highest levels?
First of all, it only happens when they come to us. They’ve read the book, two times, three times, four times, they’ve tried to do with themselves. And finally they say, oh, I need help. And they come to us. And when they come to us, there’s a moment at the very beginning where we’re coming to agreement. And that agreement would be about beyond the practice of law. It’s called your life. So you get to make a choice. Right now, today, whether or not you’re going to create a life worth living, or whether you’re going to be a lunatic. You get to choose that, understanding, primarily, you are a lunatic.
Well, that, yeah, that’s for sure.
You live your life that way. But we’re going to ask you the question, would you prefer it to be different? Would you prefer your life to be different? And then we go into that question, and we have a conversation about that. Now, we’re going to begin to shape the picture of the life that would be different, and we’re going to have some time wrestling with it, about the truth of it. He does that brilliantly in Principles, in the first part of the book. He wrestles with failure, he wrestles with success, he wrestles with his understanding of the marketplace, etc and so forth. It’s a philosophical process, a psychological process, of engaging more fully with the question about what does it mean to lead a productive, meaningful life? Then just the ordinary question, would you like to work less and make more? Which is the stupid question everybody asks, Would you like to work less and make more? We’re not interested in that question, you understand? We’re only interested in meaningful questions. Because at the heart of the E-Myth is a very meaningful reality. And it simply says that most lives don’t work. And they don’t work because they’re not living them right. And they’re not living them right because nobody ever taught them how to, and you certainly didn’t learn that in law school.
Definitely. That’s for sure. That’s for sure.
So you’ve worked with all sorts of organizations, and I’m sure some lawyers over the years. Give us an idea of the before and after. You know, what law firms you’ve seen that have walked into the E-Myth organization, and what does it look like at the other end?
Well, it looks like a human environment at the other end, where people within the firm feel heard, feel supported, feel they’re on a path, on a path of discovery. A path of discovering what they really want to do, how they really want to work, what law really means to them, what the profession means to them, and so forth. So absolutely, the difference is that they’re not driven by chaos all the time. They’re driven by a sense of order. They’re also driven by a sense of meaning. What we do is important, and we do it in an important way. So imagine living in that environment. We’re not constantly, constantly, constantly stressed and put into that horrible position of never getting enough done and getting it done right. Always something falling behind, always something missing in the, you understand? Didn’t you, didn’t, didn’t we, didn’t you, didn’t we, etc and so forth. Conflict all the time. Most legal firms that we meet are in conflict all the time, or they’re not getting enough practice, or enough business. So they’re between and betwixt this problem all the time. Not enough, not enough, too much, too much, not enough, not too much, too much, not, you understand what I mean? Imagine if you could actually work on the system so that problem goes away. In the companies, the practices that we have worked with over the years, that problem goes away. Never goes away completely. We’re not God, for God’s sake. But it goes away. Because something takes its place. And that something that takes its place is a mindset that enables us to talk with each other, to be with each other, and to produce with each other in ways that we never thought possible before. Okay, I was gonna say, so I know that sounds too good to be true. But understand it is too good to be true. But it is true.
So I’d like to ask you what, my final question is about my, my love for systems. And, and really, for someone who has helped people develop those things to take their businesses and their service organizations to the next level. How important is it to have the frontline people assisting with the development of those systems? Or is it something that should come from the top down, from the bottom up, or from all sides? What, what is your, this is a practical tip for the people that are, that are listening to this presentation.
All sides, all sides. Everyone.
And why is that?
Everyone in the company participates in the process because everyone in the company is affected by the process. And so we want to know how it feels to everyone in the process the way it is right now and the way we’re suggesting it’s going to grow. Because to grow is everything. Understand, we’re not here to stay the same. We’re here to grow. And then the question becomes, well, what do we mean by grow? So you understand we’re shaping the future in our minds. And our minds are having a conversation with our other minds, and all of our minds are coming together, shaping the reality that we’re here to produce, understanding that we’re not shaping the reality of producing for people who wish to remain the same. We’re shaping it for the organization that wishes to grow exponentially beyond where it is today. Why? So I say, my dream is to transform the state of small business worldwide. And if I were an attorney, I would say my dream is to transform the state of legal services worldwide. And why would I say worldwide? Because if I could create one, just like Ray Kroc did at McDonald’s, then I could create 10,000, just the same. Hear me, every place on the planet, just the same, just like McDonald’s has done. Because it works in the smallest form. It can be scaled to the largest form. But the largest form is simply a number of those in the smallest form. We know that little sucker works. Now do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. Why not? Because we suddenly have a universe and a universal approach that enables us to truly blow people’s minds.
You know, one of the things that’s interesting to me about that is that perhaps for lawyers, who are entrepreneurial and leave firms to do their own thing, maybe what they truly want to grow after successfully building the systems to run a practice, is grow themselves and give them the time that they need to study music or study art or travel. And that’s an okay thing if that’s part of your system of life. And so really, what you’re telling me is that you, I should be applying systems not only to my business, but to my personal life so that I can get the most out of it.
Well, how in the world can you create systems for your business if you’re not systemic in your personal life? It’s not possible. So effectively, we become systems thinkers because systems make things work. So they’ll make things work where I live in exactly the same way as they make things work where I work. Suddenly, everything’s in harmony. It’s that harmony we’re seeking. Absolutely, however, if I don’t have a dream, if I don’t have a vision, if I don’t have a purpose, if I don’t have a mission, then there is no there I’m moving toward. There is no reason for that there that I’m moving toward. There is no logic underlying that and there’s nothing compelling me to create that, because I’m not in love with that. I must become absolutely in love with what I’m here to do. So I suggest always and every time, that every single person you ever meet, every single attorney you ever talk to, get them to watch. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and his I Have a Dream in Washington DC. You hear me? Once you hear that, once you hear that twice, once you hear that three times, four times, etc and so forth, you suddenly understand the difference between great thinkers and great creators and everyone else. Because when you hear Dr. Martin Luther King, you might as well be listening to Steve Jobs. And when you hear Steve Jobs, you might as well be listening to the guy who invented Starbucks. And when you hear the guy who invented Starbucks, you might as well be listening to the greatest thinkers of all time. Because every single one of these individuals saw work as something beyond the work that everybody does. They saw it as a meaningful, substantial reason for being in the world. That’s why I’m here. That’s why I was born. That’s what I do. That’s who I am. Imagine feeding that, teaching that, inspiring that to a brand new attorney in your firm. Begin to taste and feel it, just takes it beyond anything they’d ever experienced before. In all their schooling, they’d never experienced it. Now they’re going to experience it on their first job.
Wow. Wow, that’s inspiring.
Great stuff.
Seth?
No, I was gonna say, it’s hard, it’s hard to top that. So I feel like, you know, I know we’ll have a lot of questions from our audience over time, and I’d love to be able to feed those back to you and, hopefully, have you back with our show.
Please do, please do. We can make it a regular calling.
I would love that. Because you know, what you have done, just today, has inspired me even so much more. You know, reading your book, I got inspired, now meeting the man behind the book is just taking me to the next level. You know, it’s interesting, I said to my wife earlier today, she, we’re building a new kitchen. And I said, you know, you’ve always wanted to be a baker, you just built your perfect kitchen, I have a book I want you to read about this woman, Sarah, and I think you should read it. So I gave her a copy of the book, and, and hopefully it’s going to spark something in her as well. So thank you, Michael, so much, for being with us here today. I can just say that this is probably up there and one of the top moments of my life to be able to spend some time with you and talk about this stuff. And so I bow to you, I appreciate you taking the time and spending it with us here today.
Wow, Seth, I mean, I gotta tell you, this was, I know I’ve loved a lot of the interviews that we’ve done, and we’ve gotten great things out of great people all year. But to end this, our first year, with an interview with Michael Gerber. And just the thing that sits with me, is you are either a brand or a commodity. And I don’t want to be a commodity because commodities get sold at their lowest price. What was your big takeaway?
You know, I think it’s to continue to aspire to raise that bar. I came in with sort of modest goals of where I thought that I could take things, and he’s sort of pushing you to say no, that the, anything you put as sort of a roadblock, that you can continue to systematize and push yourself north, but you need to bring your team along with you.
Yeah, and you know, one of the things that we didn’t get to talk about deeply was that, you know, I am of a belief and I’ll put this out there to the audience that, that there are legal things that you can do, even high-level trial skill, trial tactic, legal things that you can put into place and systemize to some degree, and when those things are systemized, you are able to then elevate and really think about the higher level stuff. Maybe I take my idea in a different way, maybe I take my cross-examination in a different way, maybe I’m gonna think about approaching this legal brief and write it differently this time. And I think by having the security and safety of knowing that the systems are going to get all the lower work done, it frees your mind. So it actually allows you to be a better lawyer by having a standardized processes that you go through things, don’t you think?
Absolutely. It was a joy, and I just watching your face while he was, while he was speaking because I know that you’ve spent so much of your waking hours figuring out how to elevate yourself and create those systems effect. I have to thank you, because you have forced me to push in that direction and it’s very easy day to day not to but you know, between the two of you guys, I’m getting myself there.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was just phenomenal. So the show went long, but I didn’t mind it. But let’s wrap it up. You know, if you need to watch this again, please watch it on our Facebook page facebook.com/maximumgrowthlive. You can always download our podcast. Of course, we’re part of the Maximum Lawyer Media family, so you can also get that through the Maximum Lawyer podcast as well. We’ll get this out and up as soon as possible because I know a lot of people were interested about this, but definitely give us some comments down below. Let us know what you thought, like you heard we may be having Mr. Gerber back, and he said call him Michael, I can’t do that, Mr. Gerber, that’s the way I was raised. We’re gonna have him back on the show in months to come and we want to get these questions out of you, so please let us know what questions you would like to ask. And with that Seth, I think we’re gonna sign off for this edition of Max Growth Live. Sounds good?
That sounds great.
All right. So let’s have this. I’ll be leaving from Connecticut you’ll be leaving from Del Boca Vista. And we’ll check in and we’ll see y’all on Tuesday for another edition of Max Growth Live where for sure, we’re going to talk about this interview and all the nuggets that we got out of it. Get out your pen, start back at the beginning, watch it again and let us know your takeaways because we want to talk about that stuff. Alright folks, bye for now and have a great evening. Happy Hanukkah for all those who are starting tonight. And we’ll talk to you next week. Bye for now.
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