Join Seth and Jay as they debate the best use of your attorneys
Hello, hello. Welcome to another edition of the Law Firm Blueprint. I'm one of your host gene Ruane and that man over there is the Seth. Wanna say it's another debate so I gotta come up with a good day. Last week you were Jehoshaphat set Jerome p\Price fighting out of the blue corner for BluShark today. He hails from New York City, by way of Maryland, right? That's where you live in Maryland as the greater DC area. And I'll be in the red corner. Not really a red guy, but definitely the green corner. Well, the blue the green corner today, so my gloves will be green. So how you doing this week says you just got back from a big trip.
I did. I did. Darryl Isaacs put on quite a show in Vegas for his brain trust group. And it was just it was sort of out of the box. It was what do you do? And it we've all had this right? You're sort of like us here. What would you do if you had your own podcast? What would you do if you had your own company? For some people? This guy had been to a ton of legal conferences, I'm sure and said, Hey, this is how I'll do it. And it was just fun. It was a fun Vegas experience. Ryan McKean was there and Nicolaysen was there a bunch of our peeps, as well as one of DeRose buddies who calls me a friend now, but Kenny Skywalker of New York MC fame and for slam dunk champion. He's hanging out by the pool. It was just...
Another picture with him.
You know, so like that. So the 15 year old fanboy Seth price of the New York Knicks is.
Really all like, it's like the last time I could share in earnest forum that was. It's been a long road.
I remember. I remember the spring of 94. Knicks were in the playoffs. And I can remember I had just got out of college, and we took the train into the city. And we were hanging out at Blarney rock right across from the garden. You know, basically, we went to get drunk and be prepared to riot when the mix one game six, which they lost and then lost game seven. And it just crushed us. absolutely crushed us. I almost got arrested that night. Because if you don't know, tat battle was a reporter for CBS News. And I was extremely intoxicated. And I And while she was on the air talking about how the Knicks fan I just kept yelling Pat battle. That's that battle. And I must have said it like 100 times in a minute. And finally this cop comes over. He's like, buddy, if you don't just shut up, I'm gonna have to arrest you. You're just she can't get started. I was like, but that's bad battle. I watch her on the news all the time.
Okay, we got we got to pull you out of the rabbit hole. Yes, it was a great conference. Like Andrew Finkelstein double dose Ben Crump spoke. It was he brought some luminaries, it was just a lot, a lot of fun, learned a bunch and just that unusual feel to these normal legal conferences.
Well, that's part of my thing. I'm sure there are some people enjoying their spirits having a good time. You know, with travel being messed up on the last couple of years. Getting a whole group of people into Vegas and and talking about things you can do to move your business forward is never a bad thing. There's a lot of good conferences coming up I there's the business of law conference that's coming up. Then there's an NTLM. In Miami and in January. It's really interesting horizon.
Absolutely. Hearing about VISTA is which now is working along with with a number of other people they're putting on, you know, one of those sort of nuts and bolts for management. I'm actually bringing our intake and ops people out for that, because Bill Biggs and Tim Mackay, they they've sort of joined joined forces to bring their two smaller conferences together. And those are like two of the biggest substance guys in the space. So it'd be neat to see all of that with the, you know, coming on the heels of the MTL winter conference in Arizona.
It's really interesting to me, you know, for years, I mean, you and I met by way of being the guys, you know, in the back of the room talking business at substantive law conferences, and you know, in our industry in the criminal business, there's a lot of, we don't talk about the business of law.
Oh, guess guess who I got to hang out with in Vegas? Raiden Pollack.
I saw the pictures.
Yes. Okay. We'll, we'll put that up on this. When you when this gets edited. I hope this guy was, you know, way, way ahead of the curve, big domainer. He's been a guest on my podcast, the SEO insider, just fascinating, amazing business guy. And it was also really interesting. Many years of Vegan now and this guy I gotta tell you it looked amazing. It what did that does to the body? Unbelievable?
Yeah as I sit here eating my chocolate covered almonds I'm wondering you know, can I get can I become a vegan I'm...
I ate the chocolate covered almonds are the least of your worries is my guess.
But I friendlies last night, you know for one of the kids birthdays It was crazy. But I want to talk to you about one thing that you brought up as we prep the show. And that's something that I think a lot of people in our audience needs to be aware of. And that's the employee retention tax credit. And this is something that you wanted to talk a little bit about, I filed for my through my PEO but you do your payroll in house, so you had to take a different route. Right?
Well, right. And there are a lot of nuances to it as far as where where your business fell? What you can, you know, when you're how long you are not allowed to operate in your given jurisdiction. And then there's gray area, it gets kind of interesting. And a lot of money's at stake. It's almost like a second 100 .
Yeah, I mean, or more, depending on the firm, obviously. But you know, it's something that I've been working with the accounting firm on, if people have questions, feel free to reach out to me, I think we'll bring a guest on who could speak more finite ly about this world. But it is one of those things that I really encourage people to get smart on, if you have the resources great. But I found as I dug, that it is really there's there's a lot of different twists and turns in this to maximize getting it I'm sure it's not difficult, but they're to maximize the number which is significant. And I don't understand where this money is coming from. This makes no sense to me. It's the Cares Act, yes. But it is massive amounts of money out there. And that, you know, making sure that like, again, I'm not encouraging anybody to go too far, because you clearly can. But making sure that you take what is within the safety range within a reasonable range. Seems like a no brainer. So we'll put some stuff up, put some links in here. And that if people are interested in learning more, you know, we did a lot of talk during PPP and brought on a bunch of experts. I think we'll we'll come back to that and see whether or not we can really get some get some people guidance, because that go anywhere anytime soon. You have some time. But let's make sure we get people as educated as possible.
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. So we're, last week, we did the debate. And it got a tremendous response. And I threw up in the Law Firm Blueprint Facebook group that this week, we're going to be debating a very important question, and something that I think we both have opinions on. And that's should the attorneys who work for you, should your associates be grinding work for you? Or should they also be generating business for you and out there developing, developing new lines of business do leads that come into your office? And so Seth, what's your position on that?
Well, look, and this is one that is fluid. As a more junior attorney, I really wanted people to develop to bring in business and they wanted to do attend bar events. And this and that, and I have come to the conclusion I've sort of an Andrew Finkelstein is one of the people that sort of made it helped it resonate for me, which is get the bring the work in, get people to do the work, that's your job. I'm not saying I want to turn down work, if they bring it in, I'd love it. And I'd love to incentivize people to do it. That said, at the end of the day, we It's hard enough managing the business and getting the work done. My goal is to basically make sure that we have everybody in place to do the work, and that we get them the work to be done again, extra work fine. But if they do nothing but put their heads down and finish the work, they have to hit your pro formas so that you can successfully monetize what your marketing and business development efforts bring in. That is, to me the highest calling and the first place that you want these people positioned.
See, I think you're 100% wrong on this. And here's why. The majority of lawyers in Canada in the state in the country really are solos and very small firms, you know, 1, 2, 3 person shops. And if you're going to, you know, be an owner of a firm and bring in an associate, to help you with your workload. You're I mean, outside of major cities, Atlanta, Chicago, etc. The world is small towns, and if they are not out there also generating income also generating business for you. They're doing your business a disservice on two fronts. First from they're not contributing to the to the success of the firm in generating new business, because in small town America in your town of 30,000 or 150,000 people in a small city, there is a statistically significant Ain't impact on how much business will occur every year, there's only going to be a certain number of car accidents, there's only going to be a certain number of divorces that happen in your area every year. And if your people are not out there actively going after those cases, they are leaving them to other people to get. So I think first and foremost, it needs to be on it. But the second thing I think is, is also important is that your people need to recognize how hard it is to generate income and generate new business. And if they, because by them going out there and needing to try to generate some business and realizing Holy shit, this is hard to make the phone ring, that the only time they get a case in is by sheer luck or falling back as bass backwards into it, they're less likely to leave you because they don't think that oh, it's just easy to get business because you and I both lost associates who've left saying, Well, I'm just gonna hang a shingle, you guys seem to be making it rain. It's easy. Clients fall off the back of the truck, no problem. And I think if you don't put them out there to show them that they have to actually do it. They're not going to they're not going to appreciate how hard it is that you work, how much risk you undertake, how much money and time you spend generating those leads.
Look I to me of all my issues like people will leave or not leave to start their own firm. But to me, it is your the agita. You're feeling there, we may want it. I love people to generate business, it doesn't happen. And that statistically, they're outliers, I have a lot of lawyers right at 40 Plus lawyers to have a cup of one or two people that are decent. Yeah, I got one or two 10% of the workforce are great at generating work. So 90% of the time, I profoundly disappointed. And frankly, if I send them out to these bar events, it's time away from other things they could be doing. Frankly, it's out there networking, that's more likely get them other job and get them any business. And that in the end, and not that I don't look, I'd love people to be out there. I'd love it if they did, but they don't. And I don't want to be agitated. At the end of the day, I need to know that when I hire somebody, I'm not counting on that, because I'm just gonna be disappointed over and over and over again. Again, for those those diamonds in the rough God bless him. Because you also need somebody who's great at generating business, but still believes within your model, which is awesome, right? Because if it's if somebody loves, but I've had people come in from day one, I just want to generate business, these people end up doing no work while they're there, their business model falls apart, they don't generate enough to generate to justify their own existence. And then all of a sudden, what are you left with, and that person ends up either leaving on their own or forced out. So to me, I want to know when I hire somebody that can do the work, and that that's going to be their number one focus? And that yes, if they have a passion for it, I would love to and I'd support it, it just happens so infrequently, that if you count on it, it's not a sustainable business model.
Well, I'm not saying that, that you have to absolutely count on it. But I think you need to force them to be uncomfortable. And I think what you need to do in that situation is actually take the bull by the horns and say, Okay, well, you like apella We're gonna brand you that way. We're gonna market you that way. We need you to show up, smile, you know, shake hands, kiss babies, somewhat.
Every I agree with everything you said up to the last point, yes, you can create the the lady DUI, the lady appeals the lady anything, and you could put them online. But if you expect that same person to have the same skill set to be able to crush it day in and day out, doing their work, right. And then being able to go to a bar of and figure out who the relevant connector is in the room. It's just look, I'll leave you with this story. When we hired a guy purely for biz dev said, Hey, take six months, we'll font we'll front your salary just takes just take meetings where you're going to go and just take a lunch everyday coffee, lunch, you name it, right? And like two months in, we looked at the credit card bill, there was nothing on it. And this guy was like, oh, yeah, I was gaining weight. I didn't want to do lunches. And I'm like, you know, I this is real. This is a real person. David, I relate to this. So my point is, there's DNA that's going to generate business. And if you happen to get that and get paid for it with the person doing it, but the lion's share of the time, when you hire somebody, you know, they're going to they're going to satisfy your widget. And if you have that as part of the reason I say this, is it part of your business model is you need that person to go and actually do that in order for you to justify your firm's existence. I think that's a very risky proposition.
Let's see, here's here's my problem with that is, is that I mean, I think in the first year, you know, my tendency has been to hire brand new lawyers, right. And in that first year, everybody wants to send them work because they're a brand new lawyer, all their aunts and their uncles, it's new. Their mom and their mom is telling their friends all about it. They're brand new They need to capitalize on that first year and start that revenue train are coming, you know, and if they're not there, they're never going to actually catch up. So I need them to know that it's part of the job that they need to be able to at the end of the day, we are all solos, right? Everyone is responsible for themselves. How many firms have you found where, you know, they got a couple people, they're working together, they're working? Well, something happens. Somebody has a psychotic break, or there's a divorce, and they leave town or something like that. And the place implodes, if that other lawyer doesn't have a viable book of business that they've generated, they're gonna be screwed, because they could never they become numb.
Yes, you're right. But it's nothing you can do about it. And if you count on that, or look, you can encourage it. I offer people to sponsor them to do anybody ever says to me, I want to go to this event. I'm like, Yeah, sure. Go, God bless. Right? You know, come let me know how it goes, How can I support you? Oh, I want to I've sponsored happy hours for people all sorts of stuff. I'm saying is it? Is it again, I feel almost rather...
The pain isn't? Are they going to be successful at it? Because that comes down to who the person is, and where they put themselves? The question is, should they be required to generate new leads for your business? Or should they have their head down and working? My position is they should always be thinking about how can they build the firm as part of the team? Well, you know, and, and, you know, you want them sitting in the back room heads down, cranking out 50 hours worth of build work away. And I'm saying that's not you're going to lose people faster than than the other way around.
No, no, but the point is, I'm not I'm putting the backroom, I'm not, I don't want them there. I would love everybody in theory, but what it's sort of like, I remember, you know, there's, you know, I have relatives that would say, you know, you know, you know, i It seems generation after generation where as they get older, my grandmother was like, I'm moving to a home now, and the pool only has a foot of water in it, and like you've been in a pool in 30 years, what's the difference to you, it's a beautiful place to look at, you're not going to drown. My point is, there's an aspirational, and there's a reality. And that, to me, the thing that I look, because you know me, I just like we we go back and forth, we're frenetic on this, I wanted this when I was a junior lawyer with a junior firm, as I've matured, not that I don't aspire to it, but I know that it's not going to happen. And if I push too hard, I'm gonna be disappointed. They're gonna feel unfulfilled. And not that I don't want to, I wish people to do these things. But it is unbelievable. I can't get the buy in. And at some point, the question is those that do I have those unicorns and God bless. But the app, I would argue 90% of lawyers don't have that in their DNA. And that, are you really going to be able to change that.
But let me ask you a question then, is it we're not training them well enough to do it. Or it's not in their DNA, because I meet young dentists. I meet young finance guys every day. I mean, other people in other professions that are similarly educated. And US lawyer nerds, I guess, are just not built for this, the, you know, putting ourselves out there compared to other professions. I mean, a guy who sticks his hand in my mouth fixing my teeth, he's, you know, they're going to meetings, they're saying, hey, I need more dental?
No, no, actually, I sort of dug into that I looked at it because i beta tested a dental division for blue shark. And then I noticed was the dentist come out of med school with their med school debt. They go, and they work for an older dentist for a couple of years. And at some point a few years in that dentist decides to retire, and they take further bank debt, and they buy the practice. That's their business development. The average dentist is not, you know, buying clicks, they're very they're in cosmetics, a different story. That world is different. But the average family dentist is essentially just nurturing a practice. It's the opposite. And that most of the world doesn't have the DNA that you me and many of our listeners have where we want to build something. They go to law school to be a perfect time to be in the profession. And just like they can't run a business, most of them don't have that. No, you can take the John Morgan saying, which is you can't teach hungry. And I you know, if I see somebody come in, who sits there and wants to do their work, I would again love it. I feel you can't count on it. And maybe I'm not smart enough. But I haven't been able to teach a person how to become a rainmaker.
But aren't you putting yourself in a situation where they see you going out or maybe another lawyer going out having the dinners going to the events going on seminars go into masterminds, that type of thing and say themselves? Well, how come I don't get the free trip to Las Vegas? How come I don't get to go to Miami in January, you know, all it does is Create this, this disgruntled employee who says, I'm just chained to a desk all I am.
Yeah, I see it differently, I see the opposite, which is for the most part, I mean, I can, you know, put somebody with a lie detector test is they're like thankful because that's not what they want. They're coming to us when they're coming to a J. Ruane to people 10% Want to learn to nurture under J Ruane and get it, but 90% of the people coming to you are coming because you take care of the case generation, the accounting, the the all the administrative, the headaches, all those things are wrapped up. And while some will want to spread their wings, at some point, the whole benefit of a jay Wayne, or precious metals or any of our other great firms that listen is that you're solving that problem for them. Now, would they be better off? If they did learn both? Absolutely. I just again, we're for purposes of our debate here today. See like that, if somebody doesn't have that DNA, it is extremely hard to move them into that sector.
By that same logic, then wouldn't every, you know 45 to 60 year old solo who doesn't have the ability to generate significant business? Wouldn't they want to approach a firm like ours to say, hey, look, use, you give me work, I'll work it, I generate a few cases on my own. It's the cream on top, they'll actually be making more than then, on their own hanging a shingle jail.
Show the stat that you give me what's the average lawyer in the United States make?
Right 70 grand?
Exactly. That's about 10 grand from when we started the show. So, you know, look at why they don't approach you. Because look, and I think you've just answered your own question, which is because you've had we've talked about on the show people approach you all the time, and you're like, What can I do with you, because they're not generating business, and they're not doing the work you want done. So I my point, counterpoint would be, hey, if these people were out there and viable, you bring them in, and just like they're not walk knocking on your door, it's not like you Can't you knock on their doors, and you look at it, you're like, I can't make that widget work. Because I either need the work done, or the business developed unicorns, and they're out there, I have a half dozen that can do both. But it is the average lawyer wants to be able to practice. And if you can get them to a number they're comfortable with, then that's great. I would love to have more people on the road with me to Vegas. If they keep adding more conferences, I mean, more and more conferences, I'd love to send some other people out there. But in my experience, you either have it or you don't.
And maybe your experience, most don't.
Well, most don't have that X factor that will again not that they can't bring the case or two, but enough to fill their dance card. And that those that can fill their dance card, or somewhere else.
See is at the end of the day, I think you need to teach them the hard lesson. Which is why I think why in our firm, we're constantly talking about intake volume, conversion volume, those numbers go out to everybody, even the lawyers. And you know, I want them to see what our spent.
I can do all that. And maybe you're a better teacher than me. But I can do all that I'm not seeing that convert to rainmaking. I can see it converting to caring more about responsiveness to our intake and things like that. But I am not like the idea of rainmaking to me again, I've caused it during my career.
It happens is it does it come down to compensation I that's the that's the law for these people 50 cents on every dollar that I do, are they aren't they going to you know.
I graves case study from my from my point, I offer that I offer probably more than 95% of the listeners to the show, we give 50 cents on the dollar for those for most practice groups where somebody brings in work and doesn't themselves. That's a few points less than what you would make if you had your own firm without all the headaches. So that's a pretty good deal. And I wish to tell you that like my firm revenue came substantially from lawyer generated work, I wish it was higher. And I look I talk about it as good. I'm a good teacher, we do the show people I have resources for people but not close to unlimited resources for people who want to do things in furtherance of that I just don't see it happening.
If you think it's just they're not seeing the immediate reward.
And I just don't think it's an idea. I think it's not in the DNA. That's not.
The situation is you know that you go out to a bar event or you know, to a, you know, a local Chamber of Commerce thing and you make a content that might not turn into a client for five years. Agreed. But it's one of these things that once you get that ball rolling, it can pick up steam fast, you just got to be willing to put in the time.
And this is not my argument and I'm but I'm going to say it because I'm reflecting on what you're saying. What is the average tenure for one of your lawyers when you hire them right out of school? For you All right. So okay, if you're four years, and you just through the J. Ruane example, said it might be five years before it pays dividends, not that you don't want to not train somebody for fear, they're gonna leave because they might stay. But to me, that's a lot of effort given that the overwhelming majority of people are going to be gone before there's any real meaningful dividends. Again, I've had people now many of them over a decade, and not that work doesn't come in. And I'm thankful, I just, I find that if you know, listening to knock, Hazel is just out in Vegas. You know, he's like, if I spend this much on marketing, I can bring in this much revenue, and he's gotten it down to a science, he's at a better level than anybody. But what what I what I would say is that if you want, like, if X amount of dollars would go into the training, and business development, budgets, etc. I think and I'm not going this far, I think there could be an argument that if you put all that money into PPC and LSA, you probably will see a better return than fighting the uphill fatty against somebody who doesn't really love the business development component.
Well, this leads me to the next question. I mean, it seems to me like the big firms, this is not the world that we live in. But the big firms, they decide who becomes a partner based on what business they can develop
And why shouldn't it be any different and our level?
We'll look at that is how many people are partners with Jay Ruane?
Four, but they're not Equity Partners, their profit partners?
That's a whole other subject.
No, but what I'm saying is, and I'm not casting any value on it, what I'm saying is, if somebody came to you, and they were able to generate meaningful business, and then leaving you would make you less money, you would have a position where you're like, hey, here's a cut of what is what's going on. And you'd be like, you could do that in a bunch of different ways. To me, what I would love to see is, I think that what you're saying is right, and then if somebody loves business development, they're either going to become your partner or do it themselves. But, and that's the ying yang, because if you get too good at the J. Ruane School of building it up, you have people leaving for all sorts of reasons. Now you have an additional reason, which is the only J.
I wonder if there's a way to test to find the people that would be good at it, versus the people who would not be good. There's got to be right.
There certainly are. But and I look, I love those people, even if whether it makes me money, because the way I do it is over instead of I so much the self generated work is not super profitable, when you look at the biggest TV advertisers, the in the pie space where the world is that of thirds, that they don't love referral cases, because they can generate cases at less than a third, right? Right now, referral case may be better yada, yada, but their business model may be, you know, 12 18%, whatever that percentage of revenue is, and they don't want to pay 33%, right, or 50%, or whatever percent this net market. So, you know, there's a bunch of different factors going on. I love it. And to me, I love the ethos, and those unicorns that I have, I love and I love when they generate work, and it's freaking awesome feeling. But for most straight profitability, if you did nothing else, but b j ruin the Rainmaker, and that puts them into backups, let them as you're doing, you're empowering them, you're stepping back, they're taking leadership, they're running stuff, they have more autonomy with you, then with most firms, they're getting what they want. And each piece of the equation is being figured out. Well, again, I if we did this tomorrow, I could argue the other side of the corner today. But you know, but what I love everybody, they're doing it, but I think that the cynical, you know, as I as I, you know, you know decades into the business, I am seeing the idea of what's my partner says round peg square hole. And unless somebody has a genuine desire, and raises their hand and wants it, you're going to be blue in the mouth, you're in a talk on your your meetings on your zooms your to put money towards bar events, you get almost nothing back. And then unless there is the hungry when I see the hungry, I'm all over it. But unless you see the hungry, and there are people one step beyond me that don't even hire for the hungry, because they don't even want that. They're like I'll buy more media and get more cases.
All right. Well, folks, there it is. Those are the two positions. Do you think that an associate shouldn't have to be out there hustling to generate business? Or should you be like Seth over there where they should just be focusing on the grind and getting the work done? When you provide the leads? Please let us know in the comments. Let us know what your positions are on this because this is an important thing that I think when you are building your firm when you're scaling your firm, you need to have one approach or the other because if you kind of try to do both of them half way, you're gonna definitely fail at both. I mean, it's either they are, you're encouraging them to get out there, and maybe you see them as a potential partner in the future. And they're also a future face of the brand. And so you want to do that, or maybe, you know, you want them to toil in obscurity, and in Scrooge, his basement, you know, you know, hitting those variables and generating that business money for you, like Seth does down there. But that's, that's important.
And they're both right, meaning...
I just, I just think that they gotta know what what their value is. And the easiest way for them to understand their value is realize that their only value may be to grind.
Well, I it's not just to grind, it's to be part of a firm, but I would I would take it one step further, which is, I don't feel it's my job like that education piece. Its people, I think the lawyers that at least we have a very intelligent, they get it, they know what's out there. They know the opportunity cost and what it takes to generate business. And most of them, because I historically, although I've gotten some more junior people recently listening to Jay, but historically, they haven't laterals, they've had that out there. I don't need to teach it to them. If they're coming in from the outside world, they see how tough it is. And when they come there and see unlimited deal flow. That is generally why people so part of it is as you develop a model, you will then find people that fit well into it. And again, number of lawyers that are generating seven figure in their own personal practice area would be family criminal injury, what have you who are significant generators, but it pales in comparison to what the marketing machine brings in. Not that we don't incentivize people to do it. I just can't count on it.
Gotcha. Okay, folks. So that's gonna do it for us today, here at the Law Firm Blueprint, as always, we are live every Thursday 3pm Eastern 12pm. Pacific, here live in the Facebook group, as well as you can catch us wherever you get your podcasts, whether it's Apple, Google, Spotify, wherever, even Amazon podcasts now, you can catch our show on demand, take it on the go with you, anywhere you want to be working out in the morning, if you're going on your way to a bar event, maybe listen to us in your car before you get there. So you can talk about how important it is and how you want to generate as much business as you can for your firm. So that's it for me anything final from you?
No, great, great show off .
When are you going to Max?
When I got Mt. MP back in Vegas in a couple of weeks.
Oh my god, exactly. His body's just buying an apartment in Vegas, you know, when you're not there and have it's...
It's what like, basically, the proliferation of the conferences it is it is dizzying, and I feel very blessed. I'm able to fly in fly out. It's a couple of days. Maybe not the best on the body. But it is I get such energy, the networking opportunities, the ability to sort of just stuff that I picked up on somebody I was talking to and said, Hey, if you try using LinkedIn in this way, come back, get to test it. So the stuff you know, I've always said nothing happens sitting at home, whether it be real estate, or whether it be law, that by getting out there, and I do it on steroids. I just love the collaboration and constant sort of building towards the conversation we're having today. These are things that come by meeting the people at the sort of highest level of these conferences.
That's what it's all about. I don't know how you have the energy to do it. I mean, you're clearly an extrovert. The idea of talking to people is exhausting to me. I you know, I got you I can handle for the show. Sometimes, but yeah, I mean, just the networking that you do is just amazing. I mean, maybe I need to have someone I need to hire a set. For my firm. That's what I need to do. But they broke the mold when they made yourself. That's what I'm gonna say. Alright, folks, that's gonna do it for now. Have a great week. We'll see you next week. Bye for now.