Jay Ruane

Hello and welcome to the law firm blueprint. I’m one of your hosts Jay Ruane CEO of the criminal mastermind managing partner for weighing attorneys and all around swell fella. Of course with me as always, another swell fell up, my man Seth Josephat price, who’s down there in the DC area with blue shark, digital SEO for lawyers as well as managing partner Price Benowitz DC, Maryland, Virginia, South Carolina, Florida, Louisiana, North Texas, eastern Oklahoma, and all those wonderful places South how’s your week going this week going? Well, you know, ups and downs as always bumps in the road former employee left and now we’re like hoping that one case was taken care of properly, those types of issues coming up, but generally excited I got blue shark has our twice a year everybody in the office from around the country will be happening by the end of this week. And then we fly off to PubCon which is cool life event to be speaking in person for the first time. Yeah, that’s awesome. I’ve had an interesting week. I’ve been getting DMS and text messages from all sorts of people in my history because I was just seeing on CNBC. No, I again, you know, I was doing You bet. You know, I wanted to be able to like all of a sudden you go from just internet famous to being TV famous. How cool is that? So here’s the question. I gotta ask you can I now say, as seen on CNN, compared to the people that do it the way they do it? I mean, that’s the part that kills me the as seen on we’re literally somebody sells you a package. You know where it’s an advertising we see it for Newsweek all the time. Ironically, I believe the person that you were speaking about there actually may have done that package with them back in the day, but like, yeah,

Seth Price

I they’re all these different Wall Street Journal, they put an ad in one regional section. So I think that, you know, for sure that that will check the box. So let me let me give the audience that people who don’t know who are like why the heck would Ruane be on CNBC? Clearly, stock picking, you know, no, I’m not I’m not doing mad money with Cramer. I’m not on Shark Tank, although that’d be kind of cool. So you’ll be like Shark Tank someday.

Jay Ruane

There’s this show called American Greed.

Seth Price

Just stop with that, right.

Jay Ruane

So a colleague of mine in the in the criminal defense space is now doing some jail time for being convicted of conspiring and defrauding Colombian drug dealers, after promising them for a million plus, he could then bribe a judge in the United States to make their cases go away. So this is a guy I knew I actually more than one of us do. This was a wildly popular fun, cool guy. Yeah. And nicest guy in the space. I’m, uh, I’ll say right there. I love Jamie. I think, you know, he definitely did some, some wrong things in his life. But I don’t think that your entire life is defined by, you know, the worst thing that you’ve done, at least I hope it’s not for anybody. That’s probably why I focus on criminal defense and pardons and expungements. It’s, it’s, it’s my calling. And Jamie, unfortunately, is away doing time now for his involvement in this whole thing. But anyway, so I am getting DMS left and right, because, you know, he had a catchy name, the DWI dude. And he promoted himself well, and there was a video of him being interviewed by me. And I’m not I don’t say a thing. They don’t recognize my name. But it’s me with a microphone, holding it up to Jamie. And he goes on Jamie Malaysia, the DWI dude, and CNBC use that in their promotion and during the show. And so it’s wild, because I start getting DMS, from people from all over the country, saying, Do did I just see you What the heck just happened? And so I have to send links to the story and that type of thing. So it’s been a kind of a crazy week. It reminds me I gotta send a letter off to Jamie in jail, just to check in to see how he’s doing. I know, you know, it’s, it’s terrible when anybody, you know, it puts himself in that situation. But, you know, my, my thoughts are with him, as he as he pays the price for stuff that he had been involved in. But, you know, I had done a business deal. I did a marketing seminar with him. And you know, he was always he always treated treated me well. had integrity in the business dealings. And like I said, you know, you’re not defined by a single act in your life.

If there’s other things about you so, so it’s just been a crazy week, because I’ve been getting DMS and text messages, people are seeing it, sharing it. And, boy, I look a lot younger in the video. But you know, my hair’s darker, I got more of it, it’s kind of crazy. So that’s been my week, it’s been kind of crazy. But I got a bunch of things I want to talk to you about today. Just to you know, because there’s a lot of things and I posted something on LinkedIn, and it got some traction and people were commenting on it, I’m gonna post it up in the in the law firm blueprint Facebook group to get a poll going there. But there’s a lot of talk about a players and you only want to have a players and There’s that famous, Jack Welch stay, we fire the bottom 10% Every year, that type of thing. And in some roles, I can see perhaps in finance, that’s definitely something that you want to do, because you are only as good as your numbers in finance. But I think if you are looking for only a player’s in every single and a player receptionists of a player, you know,

whatever paralegal legal assistant, Secretary, Associate Attorney, I mean, there’s times in places in your firm where you want to have an A player.

But I don’t think it’s conceivably possible to have an A player in every position. I mean, even look, look at look at professional sports that don’t have a salary cap, right? Baseball doesn’t have a salary cap. They don’t even have a players in every position, but they can pay the luxury tax. And, you know, guys like Steve go, they got billions of dollars, they can spend whatever they want. Is it possible to have an A player in every position set? No. Look, it’s ironically dovetails to a conversation, we had off camera about the difference between a smaller firm and a larger firm, if you have one. Like, if you have one assistant, you can be pretty picky. You know, hopefully, the person stays, you know, as you build and scale. You know, our friend Andrew Finkelstein, you know, get comfy, start getting comfortable with mediocrity, because if you’re not, you’re not going to scale. Now, that’s not saying we are good with it, that we don’t want to constantly upgrade. It’s not that we shouldn’t be interviewing for culture, because there are times when it’s maybe not in a player on, you know, academics or on the actual doing of work. But if they hit your firm culture and figured out you and they’re coachable that you can coach them, do you want the players? Of course not. But are there times when like, what when you define the A players, the a player, day one, or the a player when you’ve been there for a year, and you’ve trained them, and so that, you know, there are all these different nuances with it. You know, having spent a lot of time with Bill Biggs of late, he’s been done a great job working with our operations team, it’s really ingrained in my head culture first. And as we’ve interviewed for some positions, there have been people that are competent, you know, they do the job, they I don’t want to say they’re a players, but B plus A minuses, let’s say, who have a bunch of skills. But if culturally, they don’t fit, I’d rather take the B culture fit that’s willing to build and grow, then something that may be higher, that’s not a culture fit, and won’t build and grow from where they are. Can you expand on that? What would be somebody that’s not a culture fit? What are the what are the when you talking to people in that interview process? What do you look for? And say, Oh, they’re not going to fit in here culturally?

Or they will, they will embrace our values and that type of thing? Well, that’s a great question. And it’s one that you know, as I’ve moved from a guy who sort of, again, my own journey, where I’d like core values was was the plaque on the wall at the car dealership, that didn’t really mean anything, to sitting down and actually creating core values for us passion, integrity, excellence, where we actually try to now higher review. And if you know, what, somebody where, where would you not, you know, what would not be part of the core values, right? So if somebody doesn’t really care about what we’re doing, they’re really pi defense minded, or they’re really a prosecutor at heart, they’re not going to have passion for what we’re doing. Right? You know, integrity, what what do people do when you’re not looking? You know, is this somebody who’s going to do right by you and excellence, you know, are they striving to do better every day? That’s fundamental right? Doesn’t that’s not earth shattering? What I would say we just went through a situation where there was somebody who checked the box they had done they had had longevity a job that I love. But, you know, they were gonna have a problem with authority, meaning the they were they’re gonna want their own fiefdom and not work collaboratively with the rest of our team. And as we’ve grown, we’re now at that point where you’re smaller. It’s like, can they get along with you and your staff, you know, over time, it’s, you know, as we talked about mid level management and things like that, how are they going to fit within that those eight

Seth Price

Uh, and, you know, this was a bill Biggs call, you know, there’s J. Henderson out there does an amazing job sort of screening some of the stuff and it’s totally freeing, they’re not 100%, right. But they, they get those fundamentals. And if you see somebody who’s really obstinate when it comes to authority, and that they’re fighting the power, you know, stuff that you probably heard your office a lot, it’s not the way it used to be, you know, things like that, as you as you, you’re trying to prevent those personalities. And I, I’ll just finish with what I remember, when he first started out pie practice, we had some, we apparently, in particular, who’s amazing clients love them, they were, you know, worked around the clock, but it was feast or famine, you know, probably some sort of, you know, issues going on. And so while that’s great, they were toxic with the other people there. So while they may work 30% More than somebody else in their slot, it doesn’t matter because you can’t build and scale with them. So who are those building blocks of people that will help you build and grow together rather than crushing it themselves, but not being able to allow the entire tide to rise, so to speak, and, you know, it’s interesting, you talk about culture as being you know, the thing that you should be looking for, and making sure people fit in, I was talking to somebody about people who have left their firm recently, and we started talking a little bit about culture. And, and one of the, one of the questions was, you know, how do I develop a culture, I said, Well, look, the reality is, is that the culture is developing, whether you have a finger on it, or you don’t. So be intentional in the things that you’re doing. And if you want to have a collaborative work, maybe you do a lunch every week with your smaller team, and to just, you know, talk about other things. And those, especially in today’s tight job market, you know, people, people quit jobs, but they really quit the culture and the boss that they’re working for. And if you can have a situation where there’s a pull to another job, but your culture is awesome, people are less likely to jump, if the if the financial change is negligible. So you so having that culture is a great way to try to retain talent, you know, and making sure that you are keeping the people that you want to keep, right, and I’d say that that’s one of the reasons I’d like to look at a blue shark, I can’t take responsibility for it. It’s been created by people beyond myself, where the culture is strong enough that you don’t see any meaningful turnover for people. But that also means that you’re going to continue to work and collaborate with people. And that, you know, stuff that we’ve talked about on the show before, it’s just, you know, you’re coming back to your first point, which was only a players like not that you’re the idea is looking culture first is a philosophy that I’m coming more and more to, as I age and scale that that team and I think NOC hazle talks about, you know, like a, a, you know, if you have a mediocre plan, but it’s you know, you execute, you know, you sort of everybody’s on the same page, versus, you know, a perfect plan that you’re not executing well, I think that the analogy to this, which is if you have people that are building and growing organically with you, you’re going to be in a position of strength compared to star players that are not with each other, because you’re gonna have fractal back to the professional sports analogy. I mean, you can have a star player, I mean, remember Randy Moss during the Patriots star player, and he was there for one season. And then, you know, belcheck was like, Yeah, this is not going to work long term, like, Yeah, I think OBJ, you know, had the same problem with the NFL, you know, you get these star players that come in, and they give, they give one season, but they can’t get along with the systems. And and then they flame out now in that in that industry. You know, people come and go, and it’s part it’s baked into the model. In your small office, it’s not necessarily baked in that, you know, people are going to come and go, I am curious to see the future of law, where you have these monster cases, where it’s really bringing in, you know, the deposition experts, the you know, the trial experts, the pleadings, expert and you’re getting, you’re grabbing the best people from different firms, assembling the team, having them work, and then they all leave go back to their own thing, sort of like the way movie production is done in Hollywood, you get you get the best of what you can put together on a team and then people do it and then people leave, you know, for some of the bigger high value cases or that type of thing. It could be it could be something but my opinion as to eight players, I don’t think it’s possible to see an A player in every role. And I really think that you need some grinders. You know, people who are going to show up, they’re going to work nine to five, they’re going to get their stuff done.

Jay Ruane

And then they’re gonna go home and clock out. And they will and you’re okay with that. You can’t expect your, you know, a player’s to me would be somebody who’s committed above and beyond to the firm and you can’t expect every employee to be thinking about the firm at midnight. But this way, they may be the definition of what an eight player is, right? That the a player, what is a is a grade in school, right? Teachers may sometimes give you extra, you know, pieces for effort, they may give you extra pieces for additional thought or perspective. They’re different pieces, what is adu? And that the fact that somebody is, hypothetically a hard worker doesn’t necessarily make them an A player. It’s and that is, you know, what you’re talking about professional athletes, same thing, just because there are great stats in one place, it may may not be an A player within the belcheck system. Right, exactly. Okay. So that’s that. I mean, that’s, that’s the the thrust of the conversation I want to have, can you have a player, everybody everywhere. I mean, I think and the other thing, too, is that, you know, if you’re trying to place an A player in every position, you’re going to miss out on a lot of good stuff that you could do with your firm, because you’re so narrowly focused on one thing, that you can actually turn off some of the other players and you got high turnover. But you know, those are all, but that’s but that’s, again, the something I’ve talked about on the show, you know, I always see this, I see it over and over again, the rule of three for new positions in general, first person may not work out, second person may not work out, and the third person ends up being the person who’s your long term. The question is, I always wonder, can we skip those first two? That that would? That would always be the question. But it comes down to, you know, the A sometimes is in the eye of the beholder, sometimes, you know, you’re making a quick hire to get a person in. But there are other times where it’s, it’s not that that you, you know, what you think you need may not be what you need, we look, talking just here on the show we so many times we think we know something, and then it turns out, actually, that wasn’t what we thought we wanted, we didn’t need Oh, we went through that last year, we hired a lawyer that we thought was a great player. And in the context where that lawyer was coming from, they were in a player, but in our model, it did not work. And and you know, six months later, they’re not they’re no longer with us. And somebody who we did not think was going to be an A player thought was going to be a marginal, you know, CB, but limp us through has blossomed into the role. And so it’s wonderful. But that leads me to my next topic of the day that I wanted to talk to you is

referrals are a major part of any practice, ever. And, you know, there’s some lawyers, you know, I saw something in lawyer on the beach group about, you know, how do you get your business and almost everybody said, referral, referral referral, not a lot of people were talking about marketing.

So, how do you deal with a situation where you have a long standing relationship with a referral partner, and it starts to go sideways? Or even worse, go south? Right. You know, there’s competing interests, you know, other you know, lawyers, they, they get, they forget about, yeah, they meet new and exciting people, so that, you know, you’re not the shiny new thing anymore.

What should lawyers be doing to really maintain those relationships? Because I know, you know, I know, you’ve been involved in helping lawyers mend fences on on referral relationships. So what’s your opinion on that? You know, look, you’re talking to from the point of view of maintaining them, I think it’s it is the idea that that is a job, you know, some people get it naturally. Some people created vehicles, a John Fisher has created a mastermind and he has his newsletter, The his his books, I mean, there are touch points, but I studied it from the point of view of the white collar space, right, each each lawyer world is different, right? You are known as the Connecticut DUI guy, right? That’s like nationally, and I rather than come back to Jamie, Jamie, we knew him as he was like the Texas San Antonio guy, right? So I when I seen the white collar space, which is much more transactional, because in that space, somebody represents the CEO, the CFO, the wife of the executive, there is a game where each of these people need to be represented, they can’t be represented by the same firm. So all these people have to stay in touch with each other. So it’s just constant networking, sit analogous to the pie space where the bigger fish want the smaller fish to refer up and the smaller fish want the bigger fish to refer down. All those things. One of the truths that I just tried to pick up like little pieces you hear is if you’re in the pure referral space, right, there are two different ways of going there’s touching through

Seth Price

do podcasts and other online medium? Like do you? Are you using LinkedIn or using Facebook yet? What can you do to stay in front of people? On the one hand, while on the other hand, you have the people who grab coffee and lunch, this was something that was much more prevalent pre COVID companies come back. I know people in DC that have built an entire b2b legal practice very tough to do by doing three lunches a week, and their secret sauce was dessert, which sounds crazy, but it was I went through it I was the mark. I went I had lunch lunch is 4550 minutes way to bring bathroom the check, you’re like, No, let’s have it, we’ll split a dessert that extra time was huge. But that’s is that scale, well, it’s an hour and a half per day plus money. Again, that’s one world. The other piece, I guess. And the thing is, whatever it is, whoever you’ve been in touch with in the last two weeks, is the person you’re going to refer to, it sucks. But part of that is the case unless it’s a very niche play. So I think it’s figuring out how to build depth of relationships, and then how to make sure you stay top of mind. One of my favorite referral PII lawyers at Chicago does a wonderful job on Facebook, just talking about food does a wonderful job, where he’s not talking about law, but everybody in his extended circle nationally knows, if you need a Chicago lawyer, or if you need somebody to parachute on a big case, he brings him to top of mine, I think that’s just genius. So one of the things that I’m I’m on my to do list for the second quarter of this year is to actually go through all my email addresses that I’ve accumulated over 25 years and actually create a mailing list of all the lawyers that I have referral relationships with over, you know, two decades, right, and just start pinging that list. You know, once a month checking from Jay, here’s what’s going on in my world. And since it is other lawyers, it’s gonna be, you know, hey, I’m coaching Little League, that type of thing, just you know, but I’m also here’s some of the interesting cases our firm is working on. So I want to create a newsletter targeting other lawyers, I’m going to be putting out another two books this year, Tiger tactics to the CEO edition is going to be coming out, probably towards the end of the year. And then, as well, I’ve got a law student helping me with a DUI trial book, a criminal trial book based on my DUI one that I’m going to get out and send out to people. So I’m thinking that I should be doing that. But here’s the other thing that is interesting. And this came up in in an offline conversation this week. A lot of lawyers tend to get referrals from older lawyers who didn’t want that work and passed it down. So like, I know, for a fact, when I was starting out in my late 20s, and 30s, I was taking work from lawyers in their 50s and 60s who didn’t want the headache of dealing with that issue, or that courthouse or that client. You know, it was it was small potatoes like DUIs back then, you know, these are guys who are handling murder cases, sexual assault cases, they would send me their DUI case right? Now, I’m 50. Those lawyers are 6570 75. They’re starting to retire. And so those referrals from them, to me, are slowing down. And I’m thinking to myself, Why have I not been concentrating on the lawyers behind me to generate referrals from the lawyer who says, whoa, this, this case is a lot more complicated that I’m comfortable handling? Let me you know, let me send it up the line, you know, sort of like what you talked about in the PII space, when you know, when you got big dollars and that type of thing? I don’t think a lot of lawyers do any, any work into cultivating referrals from the people behind you. And I see a lot of lawyers that are now 60 years old, who had an entire practice based on referrals, who are sucking wind for business agreed. A couple of things. One thing I’ve seen that by analogy, again, that I saw in the white collar space, was that people generally refer to people of their generation. Like you, there are exceptions to every rule. But like, generally, it is harder, because the guy was referring to you. The currency is are you referring back to him? And you have your network already. And it’s hard for a new guy to break into it. So while you would love to get the referrals up, how much do you really have to send back given that you already know where to send a lot of the stuff that you need?

And so to me, I’m bound. I’m always sort of, you know, it’s the theory. Yes. And even like the newsletter, the idea is how do you add value? Right, and it’s one thing what you think is important, then again, this is this not being critical? Just just sort of whiteboarding with you. But it’s like, it’s nice to know about your kids. They can get that from Facebook. What is it

that would make them money. What is it that would bring them joy? What I mean, I think what you’re doing on the consumer side, you’re so drunk Dilt drilled in and we’re now following your footsteps. As far as giveaways through newsletter, right? Starbucks gift cards got more engagement. We’ve gotten a long time. Awesome, right? I don’t know what I’m doing. Yeah. So the question is figuring it out. And like you will, right? So just like we talked about other things to figure out, like, you want to do a b2b newsletter. Freaking brilliant, right? We all do it that was asked Great, we’ll just put it in the same one like that. How many times have you had, you’re like, I’m gonna do that separate, one targeted? And then you’re like, well, then I need to do two newsletters got to prove those two. I’ll just send my b2b People that b2c newsletter and hope for the best. And you know what, you’re getting probably 75 cents on the dollar, because they’re getting your name, they’re remembering you. You know, the question is what you’re going to sit there at some point and say, what is the marginal cost to do the second one plus the pain of segmenting out that list? When they’re already on your b2c list? How much more will I get from that? Is it worth it? And the answer is probably, but I don’t know. I don’t know. But that’s but my thing. My thought is, you know, we’re killing it with engagement when we do our, you know, dog of the month and our, you know, our review of the month and we’re doing all these giveaways to our consumer base. I’m thinking I can do the same, you know, I got Yankee tickets, I got concert tickets, I got hockey tickets, I got you know, restaurants, I can do dinners. And if I start to see well, engaging with my newsletter, you know, and they’re opening it up, and they’re reading it. Every month, I can reach out to them and say, Hey, why don’t you come to a show with me? Why don’t you come to a game with me? Why don’t you come? You know, that type of thing? And I’m thinking it can’t hurt I look, I’ll give it a shot. What’s the worst that happens? It fails?

You try? And there’s absolutely no downside to it. The question is, versus, you know, the serendipity of that, versus Hey, I know where my top 15 referrals are, have I have I? Am I taking care of them? Have I? And then so it’s like, it’s it’s a time and attention if you have the bandwidth for both great, but to me, the first place you go is to those basic ones. And you know what, you have a, you say, Hey, I already do this massive thing there. What could I do? You know, that would tie into Mike, can you? Can you double dip with it? Is there a way that you can create? If the if the b2c clients are looking at it for the giveaway? Could you put something that’s sophisticated enough that the referral partner is going to care about and if you could get to with one even better, like yes, ideal two separate ones, but then you’re like, Okay, I have a whole division doing newsletters, which may not be the wrong thing. I mean, you know, especially if you can hire, you know, a va, that can get can be in charge of your, you know, b2b newsletter every month. I mean, obviously, there’s some training that goes into it. And these are just things that I’m throwing out there for the audience to see, you know, there are things that you can do that aren’t necessarily straight digital dollar marketing, it’s more about relationships. My my, you know, my plan for this year has been customer service and referrals. We’re getting our customer service lawyer out there making phone calls, it’s taking a little longer because of some health issues. And and I’m really focusing on the referral traffic, because, you know, my cost per acquisition for a referral, you know, after you know, everything is like $42 per acquisition. So, obviously, we’re, we’re in the midst. Again, it’s so funny. So I went the full digital route, and I was looking at the big glass world that had the VIP clubs. And I was like, that’s so cool, but I just don’t have the bandwidth. We’re starting, we’re doing our first happy client dinner along doing a test on radio or getting our DJ to come. People who love this DJ, there’ll be in the room with them. The idea is starting to put more thought to purposely looking at who are your bigger connectors? Yeah, that’s what it all comes down to. That’s what it all comes down to. Okay. Last topic for the day. Okay, we’ll keep it kind of short.

Jay Ruane

Phone numbers. I know we have friends in the industry that can get your repeaters, I have a branded number 888 Lady DUI that we have worked with our Lady DUI brand since it started. We’ve always been number eight gets you know, people remember the name. They remember the number and it works. I know you’ve recently gotten a repeater in your local areas. Is there values of phone numbers anymore? Or in a digital world where people are texting off of their phone? They can Google I mean, a repeater was great in 1983 when you’re driving down a highway, you see a billboard you got to remember that number because you’re going by it at 70 miles an hour. But nowadays, everyone’s got their phone that they can look you up pretty quickly, as long as they remember who you are. So be I want to call myself a digital native that’s too strong. But as a as a, you know, as one of the early digital players. I was very much just didn’t care about numbers at all. I wanted the tracking. If people were clicking as you as Jay just said, you just click on it and nobody’s typing the numbers in as a

Seth Price

In recent quarters, as I’ve started to think and expand beyond just digital, you know, I see that I see benefits when you go offline branding, nobody’s going to remember a number period, no matter how good it is, unless it’s pristine. And those are the ones that I think you have a better shot at. So it’s funny, I was talking the other day to somebody about jingles, which is one way to get a non perfect number remembered. And to me, you know, that takes a lot a lot of resources to get into somebody’s head for the average lawyer on this Reese, I guess, as the, for the average lawyer here, you’re not gonna have the resources to brand. Anything. That was one of the reasons to me, I’m like, Hey, I’m gonna be on radio, I might as well have something that’s that, theoretically, at some level could be remembered. And I’ll tell it to you this way, which was kind of interesting. I did a meeting with the station the other day. And I was kind of surprised, because they said, Oh, yeah, so and so you know, we get phone calls to the station, asking us who that person was, like, they hurt. They said our name. They, they we don’t do websites, because to cover but they said the name they said, and they’re like, oh, and they’ll just the sales rep gets all those incoming calls and just says, Now part of it’s BS, because they want you to think that there are people calling, right, but part of it is, it’s clear that people are not retaining much from an ad, even though we think so much of ourselves. And so I feel that like, that’s one of those areas that I think it’s it depends, you know, love that answer. But in your world where you’re mostly digital, but I would say hypothetically, if you had spent your career with a son, you have a lady DUI number, but with a number that everybody was was, you know, you know, J for DUI, something like that. If you had done something that was out there is no there is some value to it. If you can make your brand with that, then you know it. It can work. I remember I had a I was choo choo choo cat K TT in college. That was my phone number. People still remember that from way back when. So the it is not like it is not a panacea. It’s not like hey, I’m gonna get a great number, make amends. But I think it’s how it’s like everything else. How do you use it? If j becomes that number, and it’s on your backs, you know, it’s on your on your piece there. And people are like, you know, if there was, you know, hypothetically 203 Call Jay, people would remember that. That is brandable. versus, you know, Jay Jay Ruane 23. That’s a lot harder to actually get. I tried to. I tried to get called 800 Call Jay years ago, before I knew people in the space and I you know, all I had was the 18 T toll free lookup tool. That’s how I got late aid lady Do you? Why do we have a bunch of other known about 203 called J. Transcribed by https://otter.ai