S6:E1: Expert Advice: Build Your Ideal Law Firm with Jordan Ostroff

On this episode, Seth Price and Jay Ruane host Special Guest Jordan Ostroff to discuss the release of his new book, Love Your Law Firm. This episode focuses on how to define success separately from just profit and how to create your ideal law firm. Jordan chooses to run his firm with a structure that allows him to be happy and enjoy his life. For example, rather than work on Tuesdays and Thursdays, he instead has time for family, networking, higher level business decisions!

Grab your copy of the book today.

It was not always easy for Jordan after he found himself in debt and unhappy with his firm in 2019. Seth and Jay admire the warewithal he had to take a step back and re-evaluate his firm during that time, and continue forward by cutting a massive marketing budget and focusing on work that made him happy. Jordan hopes that by releasing Love Your Law Firm, he will be able to prevent other law firm owners from experiencing the anguish that he faced when turning his firm around, allowing others to be fulfilled with their work as well. Plus, the trio debate their favorite ice cream flavors! All with the goal of helping you build your ideal law firm.

Check out the podcast on The Law Firm Blueprint Facebook group, the BluShark Digital website, or stream it wherever you get your podcasts!



Jay Ruane 0:07

Hello, hello, welcome to another edition of The Law Firm Blueprint. I’m your hosts, Jay Ruane and with me as always is my man Set Price over there, but we are joined by somebody extra special today down there. And that is our

Jordan Ostroff 0:18

You make it sound so wrong!

Jay Ruane 0:19

Haha. Our friend from Florida, wearing that wonderful Hawaiian shirt, which is really, the first time I ever, I ever got to know you was walking around the halls of a conference. I said, oh, there’s Jordan, because he’s got the Hawaiian shirt on, Jordan Ostroff is with us today to talk about his new book. And Jordan, thanks for being with us, for this episode of The Law Firm Blueprint!

Jordan Ostroff 0:44

No, thank you guys for having me. I really appreciate it.

Jay Ruane 0:46

So the reason why I wanted to bring you on, and I talked to Seth about it, it was a no brainer for us was that, you know, you really sort of carved out a niche in the legal entrepreneur space, you’re, you’ve done it right, you’ve built the law firm, that gives you the life that you want, which I think is rare. In our extended audience group, I guess you can say, there’s a lot of people who are trying to emulate what you’ve been able to achieve. And I think, you know, the message of your book, I got to read most of it, before we did this taping, really sort of resonated with me, because, as something you said, before we started the show, a lot of people need to plan on what they’re retiring to, not what they’re retiring from, you know, and happiness is, is critical and key. So tell me about your inspiration as to why you decided to take the time, because writing a book and set that I know is not something that goes easily, why did you take the time to do this?

Jordan Ostroff 1:49

So I’m really lucky, I’ve had so many people who have given me their honest advice and help, you know, the two of you in this call as well as other people. I started out as a prosecutor. So when I left to go do criminal defense had, like 30 attorneys who were willing to sit down with me and walk me through the change to being a defense attorney and the things to consider and all those, and I was too stupid to ask them business questions, right? Like I was concerned about being a lawyer. And so I started out as a business owner, I started generating a ton of referrals, having no idea what I wanted. And I managed to turn that into $200,000 in debt and 80 hour work weeks and being completely miserable for three years. And so I really want to help more people avoid some of those pitfalls I made and capitalize on some of the good decisions I made and you know, how I’ve gotten myself through it. So that we can have more lawyers that can genuinely with an honest face, tell people that they’re happy to own a law firm, they’re happy to be a lawyer, they’re happy to you know, they have a great life. That’s what I’m hoping for

Jay Ruane 2:46

So let me ask you this, because this is something that is near and dear to my heart. And obviously, it’s to yors as well. How did you? You know, what was that moment of clarity where you’re like, I can’t do this for another 30, 40, 50 years, I need to make some changes. Because I think a lot of people in our audience and a lot of our colleagues, they just kind of put their head down and start working. And they may not be able to voice their misery or even be willing to admit that changes need to be made. Because they say, well, this is just the life that I’ve chosen, like they said in The Godfather. And and so they don’t know that there’s a different way. What was that crystallizing moment for you where you said, I gotta make changes.

Jordan Ostroff 3:34

So, I wish I could tell you the exact day. And for some reason, I did not write it down. But my kid was born on March 2nd of 2018. So when my wife told me she was pregnant, that’s the moment, so like, mid 2017, I was sitting at our breakfast bar, having dinner, my wife had took one of my hot sauce containers and then change the label to like, you’re going to be the hot daddy or something like that. It was very funny. And I, thank God I was happy about it. Like we had been trying for over a year. It was like that nice, you know, 15 seconds of happiness. And then literally, I went into like, how the fuck are we going to do this? We are $200,000 in debt, we are working 80 hours a week we are miserable. We are drowning in a sea of fire. And now someone’s about to hand us a baby. And like that was the moment for me that I was like there’s no way that we can go down this path. And so you know, I cut $130,000 marketing budget I was like look, at least we’ll get fewer cases I’ll have more time to be a parent, my firm made $5,000 less, not to say the marketing was that bad just to say we like naturally grew into it. And that was like the breathing room to really go back to I would say the basics but I guess I never started with the basics. So to really have the time to figure out the basics. And like that’s what the book is designed to help people do is get those foundational things in place.

Seth Price 4:47

So Jordan, did you start and pivot or did you build the firm with those foundations in place?

Jordan Ostroff 4:52

No, no, I completely ass backwards my way into like a 15 person law firm. I came up to Orlando to go UCF, I stayed here for Barry, I was a prosecutor here. So I generated like a couple $100,000 In referrals, and was like, This is great. I’ll hire a marketing company. It’ll be awesome. So I did that. And then I had slightly more cases. So I hired a lawyer. So I hired more mark- so I did more marketing, more lawyers, opened a second office, all this stuff. And then like, at some point, realized I wasn’t making any money, it was going out just as fast as it was coming in. And I was grinding and grinding and grinding, trying to work my way through. And so it finally made me realize, three years later, the stuff I did that I enjoyed, the cases, you know, the cases I really wanted the clients or really wanted, and then recreating everything around that ideal client model around having a firm that was going to support the life I wanted, around, you know, that kind of stuff.

Seth Price 5:43

And I guess when I, when I look at this, because I’ve known you for a while and sort of saw you in a lot of ways, you know, like similar interests, right, you like the marketing side you like, like the legal side, it felt, as an outsider, like you knew what you needed comfortably, and that you weren’t going to grind to get that number exponentially higher. But rather, you were going to do it on your own terms where you basically, were creating an operation that gave you the freedom. And, as if you put a dollar figure on that, and were good with something less than what Jordan was capable, is you would have figured out profitability, even if you looked up, woke up and said, yeah, I got 15 People not as profitable as I want, you could have figured that out. But instead said, okay, I’m not going to figure that out. I’m going to instead figure out how to make this something that I really enjoy. And know that whatever number I’m coming up with is one that I’m good with.

Jordan Ostroff 6:39

Um, probably, I mean that would be like, that’s like 2019-2020 Jordan. 2015-2016-2017 Jordan had no fucking clue. About anything.

Seth Price 6:47

Understood. But you figured out this profitability. And you’re like, okay, you could either maximize that number, or you could maximize life, while understanding that, I know you and I know you would be capable of getting a much larger number, if that was your sole goal.

Jordan Ostroff 7:02

Oh, thank you. Yeah, probably. I mean, that’s like the story my accountant and I have all the time. He’s like you are the least profitable by percentage law firm owner that I know. And I’m like, thank you, because I don’t work Tuesdays and Fridays. So it makes sense that we’re, you know, 10-15% less profitable than somebody who’s grinding 60 hours a week, we just hire-

Seth Price 7:03

You have your own number. But what Jay and I talk a lot about is, we talked about redundancy on the last show, but more that if you replace yourself, which at some level, you would, you not only don’t have somebody who’s you doing it, which would theoretically be possibly depending on the situation at a higher level than somebody else, but more buy in, more skills, maybe maybe not. But you also have when you’re doing, when you do that type of play, you have the cost of that person. So that, by definition, profitability is gone, because you take in that profit, and you said, hey, I’m not going to do this work, I’m paying somebody else to do it. And as long as you’re good with it, it’s great. But it’s a, it’s a conscious trade off.

Jordan Ostroff 8:04

Yes. And you and in my experience, I can find people who will do those things better than I could. And will do them more consistently, and we’ll do them, and and free me up to go play golf and generate more cases, it will free me up to spend more time making higher level business decisions, will free me up to do an extra couple hours of training with different staff members to build up their skills, which then becomes exponential impact.

Jay Ruane 8:30

You know, it’s interesting that your accountant would say to you that you’re, you know, oh, you’re you’re not a profitable business compared to other ones, because they’re looking strictly at black and white numbers as being profit. But I think part of the message of your book, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that profit can be measured in a lot of different ways. And one of the best measurements of profit is, where’s your happiness quotient, right? Like, you know, because if you’re making a million dollars in, you know, net income a year after taxes, but you hate your life, is it really worth the million dollars? When you could make a half a million dollars and be ecstatic every day? You know, so, I think that’s, and I know, it’s difficult when people are first hanging a shingle, and they’re, you know, and they’re scraping by right. They’re, you know, they are, hey, you know, this week, I’m putting my gas on my credit card, because next week, I have a fee that’s gonna come in, that’s gonna be, allow me to pay it off, but they don’t have the cash in hand. And I’m not taking away from any of the people in those shoes, because, but the good thing is, is that as lawyers, we can, you know, ideally accelerate that process and get to profitability. I think part of your message, that correct me if I’m wrong, is that you have to define what profit is to you and for you, Jordan, profit is picking up your kid st school. Beimg able to go play golf. And being able to have that time to actually enjoy your life now versus waiting for some mythical day when you’re going to now get to turn on the enjoyment right? Am I wrong?

Jordan Ostroff 10:12

Well, I mean, I would switch profit for success, like, we are a profitable firm.,

Seth Price 10:16

I was, I was I was tracking you with that, which is yeah, it’s not because because his, like, it’s a difference in profit objectively, but it’s a question of, do are you good with less, you know, money, cash in hand. And that, and that sort of seems to be the trade off that you’re making in your mind?

Jordan Ostroff 10:37

Um, yeah, probably, I mean, so like, ultimately, it’s a question of, you know, at the million dollar firm, just because the math is easier. If you are a solo practitioner at a million dollar firm, you can have a 90% profit margin, do everything, have a VA, whatever else. For us, you know, we probably look at that as more of like a 25-30% profit margin. But I’m not working Tuesdays and Fridays, and I’m leaving at two o’clock on Wednesday. And I’m, you know, and I’m going to golf on Thursdays for a couple hours. And, and a lot of that generates work back. And, you know, I’m lucky my family and I did the 13 month cross country road trip and I’ll have memories that will never be replaced, while the firm had, you know, our best, or biggest year up to that date. It was just, it was crazy to me, you know, like we individually are not scalable. We can create scalable businesses through systems and technology and hiring people. But so often, I mean, I’m guilty of this for so long was like, I’m the best at everything. So I can’t delegate this, so I can’t hire somebody else. So I, you know, I gotta do this. And next thing, you know, there’s only 168 hours in a week and you’re miserable, and you’re dropping balls, and everything’s on fire. And you’re triaging everything. You know, it’s just, its crazy to me.

Seth Price 11:43

And you know what’s fascinating about this. Because, Jay, you know, we’ve talked a lot in the last few episodes about Jay parachuting in when somebody quits, things like that, that to a certain extent. And there are a lot of sort of these coaches out there in the legal space, that talk about this concept, which is, if you create something where you’re not essential, it’s worth so much more than when you when it is. Like if Jay is the linchpin, and he can’t leave the firm without it falling apart, because the next guy who leaves cases are going to be dropped, and it’s a shit show. And then it’s not set up for that. The firm is not worth anything to the outside world, whatever that means. Doesn’t, you know, most lawyers never sell their firm, so it’s moot. But it’s worth, if Jay could literally take himself out and have a head of operation that’s sophisticated enough and a, and a head trial or head lawyer that could do things where he literally could leave for a month, and there are a lot of coaching gurus that talk about this, but you sort of have lived it, not in a negative way. But like in the sense of like, this is what I want, you’re not retrofitting, and you sort of did, but like you’ve created this methodically, rather than saying, I’m miserable, and I’m gonna change it, it appears as somebody today, I don’t know if the if that change was really painful. Or if you just started slotting in labor, and said, okay, I’m good with that lesser percentage, and my accountant won’t be happy with me.

Jordan Ostroff 13:05

I mean, we had, we had no profitability, and 15 people, and I was still working 60 hours. And so it was, you know, the easiest thing for me was cutting back on the whole marketing budget. And then that lower than nut we had to cover, and that lowered the cases. And so now, I wasn’t spending so much time following up with some of these bad leads, because we didn’t have an intake system in place at the time. And so we could go back in and rebuild those things like it was just, I don’t know, it’s tough to tell you the specifics of it. Because I created this. I created this [inaudible], tentacled monster, and then had to slowly slay it piece by piece to get back to the law firm I actually wanted.

Seth Price 13:44

So what’s your current makeup? How many lawyers do you have?

Jordan Ostroff 13:47

So right now we’ve got two and then we’ve got some of councils and some co counsels on stuff like that. And I’ll be honest, I have never tried a PI case. So that’s what we are, we are 95% that now, I have never opened a file, I have never picked it up. I would not be able to handle any of those things. But I can mark it. I can make business decisions. I can hire people that go through those things. And I can leave, not come in on Tuesdays and Fridays, and leave at two on Wednesdays, and-

Seth Price 14:15

So of your two lawyers, that does not include you or your wife?

Jordan Ostroff 14:18

No. So my wife’s a lawyer as well. So she-

Seth Price 14:20

So is she on the criminal side or PI side or both?

Jordan Ostroff 14:23

So there, I mean, at this point, there is no criminal side. So she’s the managing partner for the PI side. And then like I said, you know, we’ve got some other other of councils and whatnot from there. And then there’s the pot of, you know, legal assistant, paralegal, intake, marketing person, and whatnot from there, and it’s exactly what we want currently. It’s great.

Seth Price 14:42

That’s awesome.

Jay Ruane 14:43

That really is fantastic. And I think it’s interesting that you talked about this many tentacled beast that you had created. I think what happens when you get into this growth mode early on, and you don’t have a conscious plan of where you’re going. You kind of just start bolting on stuff because Now you’ve got more leads coming in. And now you got to pay for more leads, because you got more people. And so you haven’t made this conscious decision of how you want to grow. So I think you did something that was somewhat unique. And you said, stop, wait a minute, let’s actually figure out what we want to be, and grow that way, rather than just take the growth as it comes, and figure out how to make that work.

Jordan Ostroff 15:25

I mean I’ve never figured out how to make it work. And so-

Jay Ruane 15:29

And it’s interesting to me, you’re talking to your book a little bit about referrals. And we were talking offline about how, you know, developing referrals is an important part of every business. I think, in today’s modern world, there is so much of a reliance on digital marketing, all due respect to Seth that at, at BluShark. But, you know, traditionally lawyers have gotten their referrals, and have gotten them through and, and with the new breed of lawyer going all in on digital, I think there’s sort of a vacuum of referral opportunities. And the lawyers that step into really cultivating that, putting time attention and money into referrals are going to reap some rewards because other people are happy to not bother because referrals do take time and take effort. It’s not like you know, you just plunk down a credit card. And you know, you get some LSA leads coming in the relationship isn’t, isn’t built, but it’s fee for service, right, you’re getting the lead for X amount of dollars. Whereas with referrals, it’s actually about developing lifelong relationships, right?

Jordan Ostroff 16:35

Certainly, and, and the other thing is, like, look, on day one, you can go to that lunch, you can go to the happy hour, you can do whatever, like the problem that I had, and this is, I listen, I did not use BluShark, this is not to Seth, Seth this way, that’s why I’m here, he’s not this kind of person, would happily take like 200 bucks a month from me, do a $150 management fee and run $50 worth of ads. And then I’m sitting here wondering why nothing worked. So like, it’s this interesting concept, where you almost have to like build enough of a nest egg to do digital marketing the right way, to have the time, to have the energy, to have the structure, and be able to pay for people to do things correctly.

Seth Price 17:11

I mean, It’s what you just said, I see more often, we don’t talk about it on the show that much. But it’s the most frustrating thing, because there is a world of SEO, which is under $2000 a month, where people do stuff and they take money. And it’s just very, very, like you can’t, if you do the math, you’re running a business, you know, you’re gonna take a 20, maybe you take less, 20 something percent profit margin, you pay your employees, you do these different things, how much resources are left based on what you’re paying to do anything, right. So if it’s $500 a month, like, you know, there, there is limited things that can be done, ethically, that are going to move the needle. And that it’s, it is one of those discussions and we talk, I talk a lot about historically, until you get to like $400,000 in revenue, you really don’t have the corpus of of stuff you need to sort of hustle with, you know, this and that, but that it is very, very hard to spend meaningful money to get over that too. And that there are tricks and things you can do to get there, but it’s likely not a heavy digital spend because you just don’t, unless you’re independently wealthy or have a loan or something like that where you are going to do it, you don’t have the resources you’re going to drain the business. And Jay always scratches his head and says why don’t more lawyers have a business plan when they start with capital set aside? And they just don’t, a lot of people. A lot of people, I want to have-

Jay Ruane 18:40

Well I mean I didn’t, [inaudible], job?

Seth Price 18:42

I mean to be fair you had your dad. And that’s not nothing. I know there were issues.

Jay Ruane 18:48

I had an empty desk.

Seth Price 18:49

You had an empty desk. And you got, we got luck- history is written by the victor, we started at a time when stuff was exploding. You could do pay per click then, make a lot of mistakes and still make money at 50 cents a click, what does a DUI click now cost in your market?

Jay Ruane 19:08

I’m spending a couple hundred dollars,

Seth Price 19:10

No, no whats 1 click? What’s one-

Jay Ruane 19:12

Yesterday it was $138 for DUI lawyer.

Seth Price 19:15

For a click?

Jay Ruane 19:15

For a click.

Seth Price 19:16

Right, so the idea, when you started it was 50 cents. That didnt-

Jay Ruane 19:19

No, no, no, no. My first click for Connecticut DUI lawyer, I can look it up on my ad account. November 11th, 2002. Cost me two cents. Two cents!

Seth Price 19:30

Right. And so the guy who start

Jordan Ostroff 19:31

We all hate you Jay.

Seth Price 19:31

[inaudible] doesn’t have that benefit. I assure you Orlando injury lawyer is not at that.

Jordan Ostroff 19:37

Uh, I mean, the Morgan main office is a couple of golf shots away from me, no

Seth Price 19:41

Right, so-

Jordan Ostroff 19:42

And, and look, hold on. We’re talking about marketing, to anybody listen to this. There’s a whole component of sales that we’re not talking about now that also costs money, that also takes time, so 1,000% to what Seth said, plus, being able to follow up with 30 leads you know if they do click, if they do come in, it’s it’s crazy.

Jay Ruane 20:00

Yeah, it’s kind of crazy to me because like, we talked about how lucky I was to come around in the late 90s, as the internet was taking off, and I had first mover advantage and the costs involved in doing that stuff were time, and a small spend compared to what is now, I think it would be ridiculously expensive to try to launch a practice now, and try to compete with a Morgan, or a Jordan, or a Seth, on any of these platforms, because I would need to have capital, to be able to go into the digital marketing, or take that money and do it in referral. And I think there’s more opportunity for growth right now, in referral marketing.

It also depends who you are, like,

Well that’s the thing, I-

Seth Price 20:43

Jordan could walk into any room and be best friends with a guy by the end, right. That’s, that’s not-

Jordan Ostroff 20:48

It’s all the shirt.

Seth Price 20:49

Not everybody has that in their DNA. And I think that that’s one of those things that like, if you take a roadmap and say everybody should do this, that’s part of the problem with the gurus is that it, doesn’t it- it’s, you have to know what your skill set is, what the environment is, look, your tort laws, despite the changes, are still amazing compared to the nonsense I’m dealing with.

Jordan Ostroff 21:08

I know, you keep telling me that.

Seth Price 21:08

So putting a flag down in Florida, right? You mint money until recently you had to [inaudible]. I mean, it was like, it was so many different ways to make a buck, as long as you were out there. Whereas here, if you if you’re playing the referral game, you got the same number of referrals, you’re squeezing a lot less juice out of those oranges. So some of it is situational, and you don’t know. You just happened to like Florida, it was a good place, you got Disney nearby. Right? And so it worked well. You know, whereas, you know, some of this is we don’t know what we don’t know, until all of a sudden you’re there. And you’re like, oh, well, I’m making money, I could do this. I guarantee you the same formula that you’re following here would not work as well in other jurisdictions, necessarily. Because, you know, I see places like in Georgia, where it might work really well, because there are dozens, dozens and hundreds of doctors that refer stuff in, it’s a whole system set up. If you’re in an area that doesn’t have that, that that interpersonal is not going to work as well.

Jordan Ostroff 22:00

Well and that’s why so, you know, part of the thing I have in the book is like, do you actually want to be a farm owner? You know, I think like, that’s the thing. There’s so many of these Facebook groups where it’s like, you gotta go on your own, you gotta go on your own. And I’m like, if you look at Clio trends, that average solo attorney is making $55,000 a year with $200,000 in debt, and then yeah, for me, I always go back to ideal client, and I don’t even care what kind of work you do, who do you want to work with? Because if you figure out the people that you vibe with on the client side, you will figure out how to get in front of them, you will figure out how to speak to them, you will figure out who else they go to. So like, I’ve always, I mean, my criminal defense clients, and my personal injury clients are almost the same people. And I love helping these people in society that have been shat on for their entire lives. I prefer PI, where they don’t have to be the one to pay me. And so then it becomes like, you know, how do we how do we speak that lingo? How do we stand out? And then who else are they going to go to? You know, how are they going to their neighbor for help? How are they going to a doctor’s office? And, you know, you can take that along the lines of any, you’ll get a different answer, but you can ask the same questions across the board.

Jay Ruane 23:05

So I think I mean, for me, at least, you know, in, in, in, to this conversation and reading the book and, and stuff, it’s, it’s a lot of lawyers, you know, run headfirst into being an entrepreneur, because they figure, there’s more money out there, or the money, at least is mine. The hours are mine. But I think part of your message really is slow down, buddy, slow down friend, and actually be purposeful, and decide what you want, and then go after that. And maybe this is a conversation I’ve actually had with somebody in our community, probably two years ago. And I said, you know, all the things that you’re lamenting to me about, maybe you just aren’t cut out to be an entrepreneur, maybe you would be a really great trial lawyer at a firm. And you know, the response I got was, well, I want to run my time. I want to be able to take seven weeks of vacation a year. I said right, but are you really taking seven weeks of vacation a year if you’re? Well no, because I’m running around like a madman trying to you know, closing a cleint

Jordan Ostroff 24:11

And sitting on a beach with my laptop doing, following, putting out all these fires.

Jay Ruane 24:15


Jordan Ostroff 24:16


Seth Price 24:16

I love the fact you’ve created what you created. But you also spent a bunch of time figuring shit out, even if it was breakeven during the time, hopefully not losing money. You built something, you hustled, you grinded, and then you’re like, Okay, now I sort of get the game, and I’m gonna go and put this plan in place for this. I think that when you hear people that hey, you got to immediately go to five weeks vacation. Is there something wrong, this is the issue that I have, I see with the Gen Zers, particularly at at BluShark, where the the hustle environment is not there. Right. I sort of, Jay and I talked about this where it’s a 9-5, 9-6 mentality. It’s not nights and weekends. It’s not grind.

Jordan Ostroff 24:55

Can I tell you favorite, my recent story?

Seth Price 24:57

I’m sorry?

Jordan Ostroff 24:58

So a doctor friend of mine hires a front desk person, like literally this was three or four weeks ago, who in the interview says I’m only going to do 75% of the work you give me. And my buddy thought this was the most hilariously funny joke that anybody that ever shared, three days in realize nope, actually, they were dead serious. So gave them, for every four tasks, they did three of them. So they, they didn’t finish the week, but we all appreciate their honesty.

Seth Price 25:20

Right, and it looks, let’s, let’s get away from-

Jay Ruane 25:23

So give them 125% of the work! Jordan!

Seth Price 25:25

No no, I’m talking about people that are able bodied, they’re not, they’re doing everything, their world is going to be 9-6. And look, they work more efficiently. They’re more, you know, they got more focus than my now aged ADHD brain, like, all those things are amazing. But you did things, during- how many years was it have this sort of build up before you said, hey, I had an epiphany, I’m gonna make a change.

Jordan Ostroff 25:48

So, it was about three years.

Seth Price 25:50

Right. That’s not nothing

Jordan Ostroff 25:52

Yeah, I agree.

Seth Price 25:52

If you started from day one with this lifestyle piece, would that have been as successful or did you learn lessons, see what worked and what didn’t work? Understood, how like just the chain, the selection of people that you’re going to do, because by going on your cross country trip, you don’t want to have that moment where somebody’s like, Hey, I gave my notice and choice letters to all the clients. And you know, good luck, when you come back. There are things that you figured out that look three years is amazing, it was that little time, but that it’s part of that journey. And that to me, when you’re younger and willing to grind, I don’t, I think that that’s a benefit that you learn different skill sets. And you figure out what works so that you did something by choice-

Jordan Ostroff 26:34

Sure, yeah.

Seth Price 26:35

At the end but, I don’t, I- could you have done that from day one?

Jordan Ostroff 26:39

I mean, I don’t think from day one, but my hope is 170 page book might save somebody six months of aggravation, might save someone a year of aggrivation, or whatever.

Seth Price 26:48

So that they’re thinking about it for when they want to get there. But if you didn’t put your head down and do it, I and again, it doesn’t take anything away from the book, I’m sure it, people are gonna get a lot out of it. But the idea is that there are certain skill sets that I genuinely believe generally come like, from grinding. And you see the big firms are struggling with this, as people go virtual, and you’re like a first year who normally learns and is mentored from the older lawyers, right? That’s their whole model is to scale up. How do you get that serendipity time at six o’clock, seven o’clock, when everybody else is gone. When you’re talking and figuring stuff out together. That doesn’t, I mean, now. The Gen Z that is working with this, they know how to leverage zoom and meetings and technology in a way. But generally, for the older school people, there was a huge benefit, I think there still is from that in person stuff that you do lose online, and that you better find a way to supplement that or know that it’s not there and find some other benefit from the digital connection you wouldn’t have otherwise.

Jay Ruane 27:48

And, you know, the firms that are going to be successful are going to figure out how to put those into place now. So they’re not losing people. And their lawyers are getting better. I mean, one of the best things that we’ve done in my firm this year is we’ve moved my father to a mentor role. He’s coach, and he’s the legal coach. And so just today, two of the lawyers, you know, popped into his office, one on a meet, and one on, in person and just said, hey, I want to workshop this case with you. I’ve got some questions. He’s loving it. They’re loving it. And I think that really works. And so if you can put that into your systems, and make that not necessarily, you know, happenstance, but more regular, I think you’re going to have a firm that’s going to be able to succeed and survive, Jordan you had a point you wanted to make.

Jordan Ostroff 28:36

I don’t what it was anymore. You guys are great. I love it. I always love listening to the banter, and it’s nice to be part of it.

Jay Ruane 28:42

I mean, the reality is, is Seth and I, you know, I think Seth, we can, we’ll talk about this. You always had a plan to scale your firm that to the size that you are, right. I mean, you didn’t see yourself being in a small five lawyer shop. You wanted a big show, right? Is that fair to say? Seth?

I’m here. I apologize I thought you were talking to Jordan, I was like-

No, no, no.

Seth Price 29:10

No, I mean, yes and no. I, you see that because you see me now, no, I, back in the day, I wanted to pay off some real estate debt. You know, we built a website, it took off, and hit fire, it was the right place right time. I wanted a business. I wanted a franchise floor. I was the accidental law firm owner like I, my law partner wanted to practice law. I didn’t. I was looking at like ice cream franchise roll ups or something like that. And he’s like, no, I want to do this. So I love the digital side and was able to run a business that happened to be law, but it was, it was not that like I knew that this was like, when we started there was nobody doing this. Nobody had scaled a firm before. I mean, I say nobody but like, it took years.

Jay Ruane 29:12

Not a criminal place.

Seth Price 29:14

Yeah, especially outside of PI. And even then it was not the same PI as it is today.

Jordan I don’t know about you but I’m really interested in the Seth and Jerry ice cream brand. I would love to get some rocky road from Seth Price handing me over an ice cream cone.

Jordan Ostroff 30:07

There we go.

Seth Price 30:08

But it was, the year I looked at the franchise it was the Marble Slab, it was the Cold Stone was all the, it was high labor. And I didn’t know it was a fad. But what, what I knew was it was a pain in the ass to do each thing. And I remember, loving to digress. When I got married, right? We spent our money on the venue and a band, and everything else we went like, you know, cheap on. Meaning, we found a person we rented vases, and she bought the flowers and put them in and picked up the vases at the end of the night. And instead of having a fancy wedding cake, I was at a New York wedding where it was like $100 a slice. We did a cold stone cake. And I remember going, the one thing I was allowed to do for the wedding, couldn’t register for anything was not allowed to choose anything. I was sent Sunday morning at like 9am to meet the cold stone cake design lady who asked if it was okay in our $25 cake, if you could buy a special ten dollar tin for it. I’m like, yeah, that’s fine in our budget. So but while I was there, the Cold Stone lady was, it was auditioning, 12, high school kids to work in the store. And I just realized what an incredible I mean, we talk very often that it’s an HR game, what we do at our level, hiring the staff, keeping them in place. And to see this lady doing it, I’m like, life’s too short, I can’t, I couldn’t do this. I don’t want to discipline my own kids, imagine have to deal with like 12 kids hoping that some of them are gonna show up to work.

Well, and now you have ice cream bot, you know, you can resolve some of the HR issues.

Right, and at least it’s a more expensive widget. It’s not a $8 cup of ice cream, but instead it’s you know,

Jay Ruane 31:42

Back then it was a $2 cup of ice cream, you’re old.

Seth Price 31:45

No no, no, these marble slab things that raise the bar. That’s what my point is. It was more expensive. It was just I’d rather sell the $2 one where it’s a scoop and not have to go through a 15 minute show to produce your cup of ice cream.

Jordan Ostroff 31:59


Jay Ruane 32:00

Now I want ice cream. I’m getting ice cream tonight, guys.

Jordan Ostroff 32:03

There we go. If you take nothing from this everybody, go buy ice cream.

Jay Ruane 32:07

Exactly, if nothing, if you take nothing else. Okay, so let’s, let’s I want to digress then. So Seth, you’re at Cold Stone. What are you getting mixed into your ice cream? What is your go to?

Seth Price 32:17

Well, cookie dough is my, is the staple. We can take a lot of different stuff depending on mood right, there might there might be some, you know, all different. Crunchy, if you’re in the mood, non crunchy, I get that. But to me the fundamental is cookie dough mixed into the base of that sort of change- that, that, that’s my staple.

Jay Ruane 32:37

Okay, so that’s the question I have for you. So you mix it up and get different things at the ice cream place or?

Seth Price 32:43

I’m not going, Cold Stone’s are all out of business. The whole business model is gone. So it’s moot. But I am too frugal with the kids. I’m the guy at the boardwalk right? Where, where it’s $5 a scoop $5.50 for two, or $6 for three that with my three kids. I’m like we’ll take three scoops. And can I have two extra cups please? So I, you know I’ve just arbitraged seven bucks versus fifteen, kids hate me because like, oh, there’s a little bit of that flavor. And I’m like tough kids. We just saved eight bucks. You’re not, you’re not having it any other way.

Oh my god. Jordan what’s your ice cream of choice when you go?

Jordan Ostroff 33:20

So I’m definitely like a cookie, peanut butter, chocolate so something Reese’s, Oreo, cookie dough that’s probably in like a cake batter bottom. Is probably my-

Jay Ruane 33:30

You know, I’m a guy, I love chocolate chip cookies, but I hate cookie dough ice cream. I am straight vanilla with chocolate chips and some Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups. And I’m good. And I will get that every time without fail. No, I’m not I’m not taking chances with anything. You know, it’s the same, I you know, I get anxiety thinking about having to mix up my order. But that’s good stuff here. I mean, this has been a this has been a good show. I you know, I think we’ve gotten a lot out of it. I mean, the takeaway from me from from your book really,

Seth Price 33:59

Besides the ice cream.

Jay Ruane 33:59

I’m absolutely getting out of here and going to get ice cream. I hope my wife isn’t listening to the show, because she’ll yell at me for having ice cream. Not without her because she won’t eat it. But the fact that I you know, I’m still bigger than I should be. And I shouldn’t be eating ice cream on a Thursday at you know, at four o’clock in the afternoon. But I think the takeaway really comes down to you need to be intentional, and you shouldn’t just put your head down and expect to pick it up in four years and then, and then get to retire. Like you know, it’s better that you enjoy your life at 30 and 40 and 50 and 60 than wait to enjoy it non stop at 70. I mean, I my mantra has been, I’d rather you know, retire two years later, but take a month off, you know, every year for two years, for 10 years and be able to have that 10 years back to me in little chunks.

Jordan Ostroff 34:00

Yeah. I mean, and, the only thing I’d add is be intentional for you. You know look back to what Seth said, you know, if you get terrified sitting down for lunch with somebody great, don’t do a bunch of networking lunches, like do the things that make sense for you that are intentionally what you want not what some asshole in law school thinks you want from them, not what you feel indebted to somebody else for, but like, be a little selfish in a good way.

Seth Price 35:18

And look, there’s there’s benefits and like, by grinding, I travel well. You know, there’s nothing, saying I miss the travel that I would have done if I had done this incrementally rather than sort of grinded and then trav- not that I didn’t travel before. But that there is something to like what you’re doing where you’re traveling with with a kid. It’s not easy. It is, it is not for the faint of heart. But it’s an experience unlike, you know, later in school where it’s fixed three vacations, potentially a year, what you know, Christmas break now has become so absurd. As a time to travel, dollar wise, at least table stakes are triple, you know, any other time of year. And it’s going beyond, it’s that crazy that you’re then limited. So the idea that you took advantage of a time when you didn’t have to deal with school. To me, I applaud. And there are things I was ballsy about during COVID we went and remote worked from Florida and have like a mini vacation for four months while working. Jay saw me at the tiki hut every day. At the same time. You know, to be able to pull that off. Big, big, big props to you.

Jordan Ostroff 36:31


Jay Ruane 36:31

So Jordan. Okay, so for all the people in the audience, tell us the name of your book and where people can get it. Because this is going to be released and your book is going to be out in the wild. We want to get some pre orders out there. So let’s make sure that everybody knows how they can get your book.

Jordan Ostroff 36:46

Thanks, man. So it’s called Love Your Law Firm by Jordan Ostroff. I’ve never written a book before. Probably never write one again, we will see how it goes.

Seth Price 36:53

I put money, you’ll have another book coming.

Jordan Ostroff 36:55

Well, thank you. I mean, listen, if all your listeners buy a copy, I’ll have another book at some point. But it’s on Amazon, you can order it, it’ll be, it’ll be free the first week on Kindle. It’ll be discounted on Amazon, the first week comes out April 1st, not an April Fool’s joke. But for my entire life, I wanted to announce a real pregnancy on April 1st. But my kid was born on March 2nd, so we never had that opportunity. And we’re, we’re one and done with kids. So I’m doing the book on April 1st, but it’s real.

Jay Ruane 37:22

But it’s another baby of yours. You know, it’s something that you put your heart and sweat into.

Jordan Ostroff 37:26

So I mean, my kid is six and I think the book started before he was born. So, but it’s just now coming out as he’s graduating Kindergarten.

Seth Price 37:33

Congratulations. As two co-authors. I did not realize what a cool experience it was to drop a book. People you know, look at you differently. And really, I think hope it’s, you know, a great, great experience that furthers the the journey you’ve been on.

Jordan Ostroff 37:51

Thanks, man.

Jay Ruane 37:52

Awesome. Jordan, thank you so much for being with us today. Folks. That’s gonna do it for us this week on The Law Firm Blueprint of course, you can always catch us and take us on the go wherever you get your podcasts and search up The Law Firm Blueprint podcast and give us a five star review. When you do that, of course you can catch us live in the law firm Facebook group, Law Firm Blueprint Facebook group live every Thursday 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific, Pacific. God I’m tongue tied today. It’s, I’m thinking ice cream.

Jordan Ostroff 38:16

Yeah, there we go.

Jay Ruane 38:17

Guys, I’m really thinking ice cream. So it’s 28 degrees, by the way, when I woke up this morning and took my dog out and I’m about to go out and get some ice cream. I gotta get down to Florida with you, Jordan, I can’t take this cold anymore. But folks, that’s gonna do it for us here this week. Thanks so much for being with us. Bye for now.

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