S6:E10: Scaling & Firm Culture with Bill Biggs | LFB Summer Series

Our very first #SummerSeries episode! 

Today on the Law Firm Blueprint, Seth and Jay kick off their new summer series with inaugural guest Bill Biggs, a seasoned expert renowned for his strategic insights into scaling, operations, and cultivating a thriving law firm culture. Hosts Jay Ruane and Seth Price dive deep with Bill into the critical decisions law firm owners face when growth seems beyond their personal capacity. Bill shares invaluable advice on identifying when you need external help and choosing the right kind of guidance, whether it’s coaching, consulting, or joining a mastermind group.

Bill Biggs discusses common challenges in achieving honest and clear self-assessment and outlines strategies for law firm owners to articulate and pursue their real goals, not just the expectations of others. This episode is packed with actionable tips for law firm owners at any stage of their practice, from startups to well-established firms looking to refine their operations and strategic direction.

Bill emphasizes the importance of knowing what you truly want for your practice and life.


Jay Ruane 0:07

Hello, welcome to another edition of the Law Firm Blueprint. I’m one of your hosts, Jay Rayne and with me, as always, is my man Seth Price down there in the BluShark headquarters. But we are joined by a very, very special guests as we kick off this summer series of talking to legal influencers, coaches, consultants, and that type of thing. And we have Bill Biggs with us. And Bill, I want to thank you so much for joining us today, for this inaugural session. We’re so happy to have you with us.

Bill Biggs 0:34

Totally honored to be here. You guys are awesome. I love what you’re doing with the blueprint, The Law Firm Blueprint, podcast, I watch it, I listen to it. And I mean, can’t be happier to be one of your first guests on this topic, or on this season.

Seth Price 0:50

So Bill, like I look at you as somebody who has been inside the belly of the beast, right? So you were somebody there, you’ve you’ve figured out how to articulate the scaling, and the operations and culture is what I think of you, as you know, as smart a mind as there is right now, particularly in the plaintiff side. But what we wanted to sort of kick off the series with was, as a law firm owner, there are so many different choices out there as far as like, where to go for help, and to build what you have. And Jay has been very vocal about first, what do you want, but like, which, I don’t want to discount cause we’re going to talk about that. But sort of kick this off with? Where do you start? As far as when you know that you need something beyond yourself? How to evaluate what’s out there?

Bill Biggs 1:38

It’s a great question, Seth. And I think, you know, one of the biggest steps as a law firm owner, as a leader is to recognize when you’re starting to come up against your own limitations, when you’re the bottleneck, when, when growth, whether that’s growth in the business or growth in the life that you want, when you’re not getting where you want when, it and the work is harder than it should be, it feels like this is, I’m not getting the traction that I need to be getting, that I want to be getting. I think that’s the point that you say, okay, I need some insight, whether that’s through a mastermind, or through all the various amazing resources that are available in our industry, or whether that’s saying I need some coaching either for myself, or for the key leaders in my firm, for my COO, if I have one, something like that. But I do want to go back to one thing that you said that that I think is most important. And for me, in fact, having worked and I feel very honored and privileged to have worked with you Seth, if you’ll recall, one of the first things, conversations that I had with you is the same one that I have with every law firm owner that I ever work with, in whatever capacity, even if it’s at a conversation at a conference, I say you have to decide what you want. Like, tell me what you want, and I can help you, like we can talk, we can walk through that conversation. But first and foremost, what kind of law firm and what kind of life do you want? And I think if you start there, then you’ll end up answering the question, what kind of coach? What type of consulting? What kind of help? Do I need to get me there?

So can I guess a question about that?


Jay Ruane 3:15

The what do you want question is, is is a tough question to actually get an honest answer out of people. Because a lot of times, if you’re working with somebody, you say, okay, what are you looking for in life? Or where do you want to go with your firm? They’re going to give you the answer that A, either they think you want to hearm or B, their colleagues are telling them that that’s what they should be doing? How hard is it to unpack that with somebody and actually truly get to what it is that they want. Because, you know, if, I had conversations with my father, who’s my partner 25 years ago, and what he wanted, you know, it took us a while to get to what he wanted. So I could build the firm that I want and align with his interests as well. So how often do you find situations where people are giving you what they think you want to hear or what other people are telling you, they’re not actually talking about what they truly do want?

Bill Biggs 4:11

I would say, the first answer is rarely ever the real answer, and that doesn’t mean that they’re intentionally not giving a real answer. It goes to your point. And, and honestly, Jay, what a great observation. I think part of that is why I feel so in the sweet spot of my life and my professional career, because I have been around a while and I have talked to literally hundreds, maybe more of law firm owners and I, you know, I’ve seen it I’ve, I’ve had those conversations. And so when I’m asking that question, I’m also aware that it’s probably not going to be a one answer, you know, 30 second easy conversation, that, that conversation may last for the first few weeks into really, into our work together. Or into our friendship or whatever, our conversations, because it does take a while. And sometimes it takes a while to take a step back. And you need that perspective of someone and I, I’m thankful because of the years that I’ve survived in the industry, that I’m willing to give that and maybe give a little bit of pushback and say, do you really want that? I mean, do you really enjoy having everything have to rely on you in the firm? Is that, you really enjoy that? Or if you could, don’t you wish you could step back a little bit, or whatever the case may be? You know, in some ways, it’s like, it has a therapy element to it.

Seth Price 5:36

So, you know, as people look at what is possible, I sort of, like put them in different camps, right. There are masterminds where you sit with a bunch of people in the room, where, you know, where you have perspectives of people, sort of, I always look at it as unvetted, some people may be great, some people not but everybody, [inaudible] shared. And then you have sort of these, you know, larger scaled groups that are, you know, maybe good for mindset, they may have best practices from the business world layered into them, versus somebody who’s like almost like a personal trainer that’s working directly with you, not just on a once a month accountability, but either a day, a month, or putting, and then the, that piece, and I’ll even in add a fourth, which is what become, the cause celeb in our space, like the EOS world, where you have a methodology, help break down. I mean, I know for years I don’t wanna say was I was resistant to the coaching world, I started with, my gateway drug was the masterminds. But how do you sort of think about these as options? Assuming you agree with the sort of characterization, and the order of operations that somebody might want to look at these through?

Bill Biggs 6:49

Another great question, I think they all can have a place. And, and maybe they all have a place in the lifecycle of you, as a firm owner in your professional lifecycle, I think it’s extremely valuable to join some type of group, whether it be a mastermind, what we used to call back in the days, a losed financial group, where you actually shared numbers, I still to this day, think that those are some of the most powerful, they’re not done nearly as often now. Because everybody’s footprint overlaps everybody else’s footprint. And that and back in the day, you could have exclusivity of market. And so you would come together, and you’d share more, because you didn’t, you weren’t worried about somebody actually taking your stuff and then beating you with it. Or taking cases from you now, you know, it’s everybody is all over the place. But those were so good, because you had people sharing what really worked. And to your point of vetting the people in the room. When you’re in a group, you don’t know when somebody stands up and says, oh, well, we did this, and this was the result. You don’t really have data to show? Did it really work? Is it? Is it really truly working? Or is it just the flavor of the month and what they you know, what, what they hope is working?

Seth Price 8:00

I always joke with Jay that I want the six month rule. I’m going to do it, or I just started doesn’t, doesn’t fly like do you have proof of concept versus I’m excited because I just paid money for x?

Bill Biggs 8:12

Yeah, one of the, one of the legends in all of this for years, Lee Coleman, who was one of the originators of M&L, I was in M&Ls for, you know, 10-12 years in those closed financial groups. And, and he would always say, look, I don’t, don’t tell me about this new idea you just started, right? And how great it is, come back to me two years, after you’ve, you’ve done it, you’ve tested it, you’ve tried it. So but, but nevertheless, the groups are powerful, because you are hearing best practices, you are hearing a lot of stuff that’s tried and true. And look, somebody stands up and they say we did it this way, or we worked with this company or, with and then somebody else says, yeah, we did, too. Yeah, we did, too. And you say, all right, well, there’s proof within the room, right? It’s not just somebody’s one off idea. So the groups are very valuable. I think, and of course, from what I see in the industry a lot, where the coaching or the consulting starts to come in, is where the owner or their executive leadership team, or their COO, which all of those, you know, intermingle. It’s when they began to say, all right, how do we function at the top? For instance, like quarterly planning, like annual planning? How do I, what is does the role of an owner start to look like, at what point do I stop taking cases? When I do that, how do I manage my firm? How do I lead it? How do I put together an executive team? How do I put together a mid level leadership team? How do I hire a COO? That, you know people don’t go to school to be COOs, and they’re in short supply and high demand. So it’s those I think high level leadership questions and structural questions and design questions and issues that happen in firms that I think is where the law firm owners need to have some type of help from somebody who’s done it before, or a group of people that have done it before.

Seth Price 10:08

One of the things, I just came back from the Fisher Mastermind, which is a great gateway drug for people who love to get into, it’s a limited limited buy in, and thank you for speaking at it, it kicked ass as always, but in my room that I was helping to facilitate, you know, they don’t call it a CMO. They’re not paying CMO money, but the law firm administrator, the person, the non lawyer, beacon at the firm is probably the topic du jour, that again, it’s not new, but it’s sort of the biggest struggle, a lot of the people listening to this podcast, are people that are sort of trying to figure that piece out. You know, and again, you gotta go take a step back, you’ve been playing the in big leagues for quite a while where there was, that was a given. But when trying to figure out, you know, in hindsight, the skill sets, the moves that you make, you know, there’s one school of thought you, if you can, promoting an admin into that, because they know your firm, you know, what are your thoughts? What do you see work, not work, some of the pitfalls for people are just, they’re not gonna get a CMO, but the first non lawyer administrator that can help bring that firm together.

Bill Biggs 11:12

Yeah, and you’re saying CMO, but you mean COO, right? COO?

Seth Price 11:16

Yes. Yes I apologize, you are correct, as always.

Bill Biggs 11:19

A COO, and then some, in some states, a nonlawyer can be a CEO. Great question Seth. I think I’m, I’m typically cautious dependent about elevating someone who’s been an admin or who’s been the top paralegal or something like that, if and here’s the big thing, if you’re going to have them do any type of performance or metric management, over lawyers, which I know a lot of COOs don’t do that, but a lot of the top COOs do. And of course, they’re not affecting legal decisions. But they are, in some ways, interacting with performance metrics and things like this. It’s going to be hard to bring someone up from within and for them to have the credibility or the, you know, the voice to be able to do that. I think something that’s happening, in fact, at John’s mastermind, I had three people come up to me, and it’s in a relatively small group of firms, all asking me about this, this idea of fractional COOs, am I ready for a COO? How big do I need to be before I have a COO, or a director of ops, whatever you want to call it. And I think that’s emerging, I’ve had multiple COOs in the industry, come to me and say, hey, you know, if I have, you know, some bandwidth, I might like to do a little bit of consulting on the side as a fractional COO. And so they, they’ve come to me and asked for some coaching in that area, and what might that look like? So I think when a firm is looking in that direction, they’ve got to decide, alright, what is it that we ultimately, you know, think ahead and not, don’t, don’t plug the hole now, you know, don’t just, you know, stop the leak now, right? Think about what it is you want to build really for the future, and what do you want that role to look like? Because you don’t want to just plug the hole now with somebody that in three years, they’re in over their head, and you know, they can’t really take you where you want to go.

And then you have a decision to, the very difficult decision, are you gonna put somebody over somebody which because is a struggle.

Which is going to be challenging, you know, that can be fraught with a lot of different issues. So I do think that that more and more, we are starting to see COOs, a lot of skill, more experienced just over the passage of time. There’s some really good COOs in the industry right now that I really, you know, am proud of and think very highly of, but I think a firm, the sooner they make the decision, I think that’s a critical thing. If you’re a firm that’s at 20 or 30 people, the sooner you decide, hey, we need to bring somebody like this in. And especially if you’ve got enough bandwidth, where you can train them, you can get them coached, you can send them to visit other COOs and things like that, the better chance you’ll have of long term success. And I’ve seen many firms do that. And it’s been highly effective. But if you wait, I was just talking to a firm at our leadership summit in Vegas, and great firm, but, you know, they’re at 140 people, and they’ve never had, they had one, but it wasn’t really a COO and they are scrambling. I mean, they’re, you know, because that, the thing is massive. The owner, it’s got one owner, you can’t control it all.

Seth Price 14:32

You know, and that’s, that’s one of the challenges that you have, to throw this last one out, which is when looking at it, you know, you’re again, playing the big leagues. The COO, you know, is not for the, that’s a real deal. There’s, there’s a large world between, like before a COO is even possible for a firm, you may call them that, but like figuring out as you sort of alluded to, what skill sets and again, partly you sort of get what you get, you may coach aroun it, or may, there are parties around it.

Bill Biggs 15:02

For sure.

Seth Price 15:02

But that to me, when I look at this about what, what is the thing that gets you, you know, from the 2-4 million, assuming that’s your goal, you know, where it’s no longer a law firm owner taking these pieces on? Are there things that you sort of have seen working with some of the, you know, medium sized firms? Like, what are the sort of most essential things to take off the owners plate? You know, when it, when the bandwidth or the money is there?

Bill Biggs 15:30

Yeah, I think, you know, and obviously, people are different. But there does seem to be a common theme to me in the industry over the years that most owners over time, especially of the firms that really start to grow, they have a growth mindset. Most of those owners, they care a lot about marketing. You know, they, they care about being the brand. And they should, that’s awesome. And if they’re on TV, or social media a lot, then that’s, that’s a part of it. So they love to do that. The other side is they, they love to be a lawyer, they’ve been a trial lawyer, or they practice. And so they, you know, their skill set lies in either building the brand, and or being the legal, basically, the chief legal officer, the chief legal mind, in the firm, where they tend to struggle the most in terms of my experience is understanding organizational structure and leadership, how to scale what does it look like, there is so often a disconnect between the ownership and the team, I just it, if that, if there’s one problem that I see the most, it’s it’s that problem. So where I see people go for their COOs, there’s four places number one, they, they look for a CFO or controller and they raise them up from the financial side. Number two, they raise them up from within, you know, it was a paralegal, an admin, the office manager or something like that. Number three, it’s a lawyer, right? So it’s a lawyer who doesn’t want to practice or isn’t very good at it, you know, something like that, or four, they go somehow into the organizational leadership route, they go and find somebody who is the COO, in another industry, a CEO, somebody who’s got an MBA, somebody who has a business leadership background. Now, of course, you know, talk, when the hammer is talking about the nails, I think the things I see the most often that are successful, are the ones that have come from the business leadership, organizational background, but I have seen some that were also very successful, you know, that came from the CFO side, I can think of a few off the top my head that were paralegals, and they’ve been very suc- you know, it’s more about a personality. But at the end of the day, the gaps that need to typically be filled for the owners, to me have to do with organizational dynamics, and structure and leadership, and accountability, systems, processes. And the owner can run with the marketing, they usually want to, the owner can set, you know, obviously guidelines about how we’re going to practice law, and the standards we’re going to have and good decision making. The gaps that owners most often have are how do I take something and turn it from 20 people to 120 people and manage it well? So if that’s your gap, then you need to find somebody that knows how to do that.

So I have a question for you. And this is a little, a little off the beaten path where where we’ve been going with it. But you’ve had the ability to see into so many firms as they’re beginning their scaling journey, I guess you can call it or their, you know, they’ve established a good solid core and they want to grow. And that, and then you’ve also seen people who are [inaudible], and it’s really a chicken in the egg question, right?


Jay Ruane 18:53

What comes first in these operations? Is it the culture? Is it the systems and operations, because if you don’t consciously create your culture as you’re scaling, one is going to be created without your involvement, and that may not match. So what comes first, the systems or the culture?

Bill Biggs 19:12

Yeah, well, you’re talking to a guy, right, who preaches culture all the time. I would love to say that, you know, that that should come first. But look, it’s all happening at once. And I think that’s, that’s our, that’s real life. That’s real life for a firm. Now, if you have an owner, that has naturally inclined towards wanting to have really lean and efficient systems, they just love systems. They’re a lawyer, but they’ve got an engineer brain, you know, then that firm is probably going to be, you know, ahead of the game as its building systems. Even when it’s smaller. It’s thinking about scaling. It’s thinking about efficiencies and those things, three, four or five steps ahead, even when it’s a smaller firm. If you have a law firm owner who their passion is culture, you know, they, they want to have this model organization this amazing, you know, entity that is the beacon on the hill, then they’re going to probably be stronger in that. But I tell you, at the end of the day, if you don’t pay attention to those two things early on, that it’s going to cost you a lot of pain and a lot of work to get it fixed, the bigger and bigger and bigger you get. So whether, you know, chicken or egg, you’re right, it, it depends on the owner, but it’s hap- happening simultaneously. And I’ve seen tons of firms who they’re growing, and their processes are not built at all to grow. And so they are going to have major failures, major malfunctions. And I’ve also seen firms that have grown real fast, and culture and the idea of how people enjoy one another. And whether they believe in the work, all of that wasn’t in place, either. And then they have a fracture, right. And sometimes that’s when there’s a split, that’s where you see, you know, the partners split up early on, or, you know, half the people leave, because the owner was out of sight out of mind about the you know, everybody hated working there. They just didn’t tell him, he thinks, or she thinks it’s great, because it’s growing, because money’s coming in the door. So both both are critical. You got to do both.

Jay Ruane 21:15

Absolutely. Seth?

Seth Price 21:15

Yeah, I’m gonna sort of take you over to an area that I know is not your, I don’t believe, you know, is sort of, what I’ve seen explode in the space is the adoption of EOS, the entrepreneur operating system, laid out in Traction by Gino Wickman, want to get your thoughts? You know, it’s one of those deals that I know that before we used it, we just didn’t communicate well. I know objectively, it’s a pretty simple, it’s not like a fancy system. I’m sure there are better ones out there. What are your thoughts of the rise of popularity of this? Is it that because it’s simple, it works? Are there better things out there that we should strive for? Where are you as far as how to set up? Because you’ve spent a lot of time in this forum. Is this in your opinion, you know, is you know, and it’s getting, it’s getting traction. No pun intended with the, [inaudible] community? Is it justified? Or is it that we were so dysfunctional that anything was better than what we were doing?

Bill Biggs 22:17

Well, that’s true, for sure. I think, number one, let me say, I think EOS is great. I think it’s a phenomenal system. Also, if you guys are hearing sirens outside, I apologize if you’re hearing ambient noise, or background noise. I think EOS is great, and you’re not going to go wrong. You’re, if you follow EOS, to a T, as a business, you’re going to you know, and you’ve got the other right pieces in place, you’re going to be successful, it’s a good system. Before EOS gained such great popularity in our space, you know, Verne Harnish, Scaling Up,

Seth Price 22:57


Bill Biggs 22:57

That was, that was a little bit of a forerunner and, and that’s, that’s what I cut my teeth on. And there are a lot of things about scaling up and, and Verne’s approach that, that I think that I prefer, but to be quite honest, I think the best firms are the ones where the owner and that executive leadership is really, really mindful about what it means to grow as a business, as an organization, they almost always take a system and adapt it a little bit to fit their, what they’re trying to do to fit their culture to fit their ends. Now, that can be dangerous, if you’re not really good at that, because now you take something that out of the box will work just fine. And you try to make it your own, but you’re not really skilled at it, and you, and you just make a mess. So, so you know, you have to be careful about that. But I use a Personally, I use a hybrid system between EOS and Scaling Up, I’ve taken what I think are the best parts of both. And that’s how I would run a firm. I think a lot of firms, like I said that enjoy the organizational side or have a leadership team, or a particular leader that enjoys that and kind of oversees that aspect. That’s usually what they end up doing. So it’s not out of the box, but it’s the nuts and bolts, and then they modify it and they become very happy with, with how it works in their in their context.

Seth Price 24:22

You know, it’s funny. Yeah. And I was gonna say, but Jay, this is a life moment for us. We had Verne Harnish on during COVID on the podcast, and Jay got to ask him his thoughts like, you know, essentially Jay, you don’t have to give me the exact wording but something like, were you bitter that like the thing you created which objectively is much more interesting, much more meaty, ended up sort of as a, as a second, you know, thought compared to the popularity of what his disciple brought out. You remember that Jay?

Jay Ruane 24:51

I do. I do. It was, it was a it was a moment, I guess you could say.

Seth Price 24:57

Well, let me, before you jump into that, my question for you Bill, on that, at top level, what are some of the things that us people that jumped in on EOS may not be seeing that the more sophisticated Scaling Up model might have, that somebody might want to include in their, in their whole operation?

Bill Biggs 25:19

So that’s a phenomenal question. One of the things that I’ve seen in firms that have adopted out of the box EOS is that it can be a little difficult for them to accomplish, whether it’s quarterly planning or some some type of rhythmic planning, you know, whatever the timeframe is, the eight week cycle, the 10 week cycle, some of the terminology and the definitions, I feel like at times don’t fit really well in PI law, and the way we operate and so scaling up in my opinion, and in my usage of it, it’s a little more flexible, and it allows for you to really create this, this rhythm and this piece, where planning and attacking problems and harnessing opportunities, or should I say harnish, harnishing opportunities. You know, it feels, to me really natural. And I’ve seen firms that get into a real quick rhythm and don’t get bogged down. While, while I’ve seen some firms that I’ve coached. And they’re using EOS. And again, it’s awesome, it’s a great, it’s a great system. But they have a hard time because there’s lots of terminology, there’s lots of pieces that they’re trying to adapt into, into PI. And it doesn’t always, it always fits. And I find that, I find that the teams become a little confused. The next piece in in all of that is I also think it’s easier. And this is just, just a personal preference and something that I think is, but is a powerful, powerful thing. I think, some of Vern’s stuff. And the way scaling up is built out what you can do with it, you can involve the entire team all the way down to whoever and I don’t want to, you know, have a caste system. But you know, to your your entry level team members all the way up to your your executives, your owner, every one of them can play a part, in a level of alignment that I think is a little harder, in EOS. EOS is a little top heavy, I think, if done properly Scaling Up, and what Verne does, you can get every single person in line. And man, when that happens, you’re talking about a level of momentum that is, that’s unmatched.

Seth Price 27:44

We may have to have you back for that very piece. Because I’ve seen it personally, I run to EOSs, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but like, the law firm Price Benowitz, and BluShark, and you’ve helped with both. And it’s amazing because at BluShark, which isn’t a PI shop, obviously, a digital marketing agency, the amazing amount of you know, buy in, and that the rocks are looked at as sacred. Whereas the law firm, it’s done amazing things for communication, for trust, for all the things, for culture. But when it comes to moving rocks, I got to tell you that it’s not uncommon for us to get to the end of the quarter and say, was this was this either measurable? Or was this really what we want. And it’s not, it is not jammed nearly as well on the PI side of the law firm, as i’ve seen, on the the marketing, and I would love to figure out, is there a way to retrofit some of those pieces, you might have a whole nother

Bill Biggs 28:37

There is.

Seth Price 28:37

Industry- which is EOS plus, you know, something like that, where you’re, you don’t want to give up the simplicity. At the same time you know that there’s more possible.

Bill Biggs 28:47

Yeah, and let me, let, I want to make this abundantly clear to my very good friend and colleague, John Knockhazel. And what he and Mike are doing, look, they are, they are champions, and they’re changing firms every day and EOS, with EOS. And, you know, that is absolutely absolutely amazing. So you’re not gonna go wrong.

Seth Price 29:08

Look, we’re, we’re Fireproof, you know, disciples and evangelists. We love it. But I also know and I think that they, like they do the EOS portion. And then they do their semi annual sort of live events. And that combination is great. And we’re checking boxes and kicking ass. I also know on the EOS component of it, you know, as great as John is, like, you know, they’ve had Gino Whitman for 20 years where it’s like two years into this. And I know that there are sort of like pieces that are, you know, look, you want that, it’s not you’re giving it up. We’re not stopping it. But I know that there’s more possible. And when you see that, for me, maybe the fact that I can have that tale of two cities, and I see somebody who’s not constrained by law firm elements, it is amazing what happens there. So part of that’s just the legacy issues of a law firm compared to a non law firm business, there’s certain constraints, you just don’t have.

Bill Biggs 29:19

100%. And to that point, you know, John and I have had many, you know, for us, it’s just geeking out, because we love this stuff, talking about these different systems and talking about, you know, how does this work and what happens when you do this. And it’s like, it’s like comparing comp-compensation systems, or comparing case management systems. Like, there’s not just one way, but it’s fun. Like, if you want to be the best if you really, really, really want to be elite at what you do, you’re, you’re always looking at it and saying, what could, what could we tweak? What dial could we turn, without breaking it? You know, or even just breaking it a little bit? In order to make it better? That’s fun. For, for some people. But

Jay Ruane 30:50

Yeah, can I ask a question about that? That specific thing? Is that what I see, and I’m interacting more with the, you know, the law firms that are at, you know, under seven figures, right, so they are, you know, just starting this process, and what I see, unfortunately, is, as the leader starts to be exposed to these ideas, like EOS, like Scaling Up, like going to masterminds and hearing these buzzwords, all of a sudden, you have somebody who is is rushing from one thing to the next. And they’re saying, okay, we did this for three months, I just went to another seminar, we’re going to try this thing, and then they’re gonna go to another one. And they never let anything sort of take hold and develop it. And especially if they’ve been in operation for 5 or 10 years, and you’ve got institutional, you know, employees who’ve been like, we’ve been doing this since day one, we know what our job is, now, you want us to come to these quarterly meetings and create rocks, what the hell is a rock? Like, it could cause big problems in your firm.

Bill Biggs 30:50

Oh for sure. Oh absolutely.

Jay Ruane 30:55

It could destroy firm, if all of the a sudden-

Bill Biggs 31:19

I’ve caused it, I’ve been I’ve been the source of the problem. By by, you know, implementing change too quickly, or, or not as skillfully as I should have, or you know, because of that exact thing, Jay, and that, and think about as difficult as that might be with 8 or 10 people, think about, if you got 80 to 100, people that have always been doing it just however, the way is they’ve been doing it, and now you’re trying to bring some structure into it, that’s tough. To your point as well. I mean, you know, this is, this is one of those, and I think owners know this, but this is one of those, you know, things that COOs, behind the scenes or from the conference stage, I laugh about, or talk about, right that, you know, an owner, an incredible guy like Jay, or like, Seth comes back from a conference or even at the conference, starts calling his team and says, we’re so messed up, we’re not doing this, right, we got to change this, I just thought, you know, and the team starts to have this trauma every time, you know, the owner goes to the next conference, or the next mastermind, because they’re like, what, what’s about to change, something’s gonna, you know, something’s gonna change. And will that even last will it be for for the owner, the flavor of the month, so, but by the way, the, this comes back to the thing that we started talking about in the first place, this is where coaching is so important. This is where a leader in my opinion needs to have, whether it’s someone on their own team, a good executive team, or someone from the outside that can help them understand look, organizations, groups of people, don’t function the way your entrepreneurial brain. If you know, there’s gotta be there’s a, there’s a blueprint, right, to get from your brain, from your ideas, down to how this, you know, should work so that your team embraces it, enjoys it, right. You know, and to give a tip of the cap to EOS right, from the visionary to the integrator on down.

Jay Ruane 33:54

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I look, I don’t go to nearly as many conferences as Seth does, I probably go to 1% of the conferences that he goes to. But I look at all the agendas, because I’m always like, hey, what can I get from Setg that he learned at this thing? And I rarely see anybody speaking on change management in a firm. It’s almost, it’s almost never talked about. And I’m wondering, because that’s a huge thing.

Seth Price 34:21

Well but its like, but change means two different things. Right? change management, the, in the corporate sense is I’ve acquired a firm, we have two different firms and two different cultures, what you’re talking about is just how do I get my firm set?

Jay Ruane 34:32

How do I get my secretary has been with me for 25 years and says, this is how I do things to now report to somebody when she wants to walk right into my office or he wants to walk right into my office. That’s a huge change to institutional players that keep your firm going. So –

Bill Biggs 34:47

You’re really hitting on something here, Jay, and it’s your, hey, Big Jay, it’s your lucky day. Because our leadership conference that we just had, it was disrupt or be disrupted, and I did a whole talk on how do you take your team through change, how do you how do you lead you know, teams through change so I’ll send it to you. I’ll send the presentation to you.

Seth Price 35:08

And depending on Tim’s benevolence we will, we will,

Bill Biggs 35:10

That’s right, or maybe even a video.

Seth Price 35:13

If possible we will, any any any Bill Biggs content we can get, we will certainly share with the masses. Thank you so much for making the time today. This was a great way to kick this off.

Jay Ruane 35:25

Yeah, we love it.

Bill Biggs 35:25

Love it. Appreciate you guys, enjoyed it a lot.

Jay Ruane 35:28

This was cool. All right, folks, that’s gonna do it for us this week on The Law Firm Blueprint, of course you can catch us every week live in our Facebook group 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific or you can take us on the go wherever you get your podcasts including Apple podcasts, be sure to give us a five star review when you are in the podcast. You can also catch us live on LinkedIn now, Seth’s arranged to have that going live every Thursday as well. So if you follow Seth and follow me you’ll be able to see that show live but for that, Seth anything else you need to add?

Seth Price 35:57

No just thrilled to to have this and can’t wait to see the rest of the series.

Jay Ruane 36:01

Yeah, this is gonna be great, Bill, thank you so much for being with us.

Bill Biggs 36:04

Thank you guys. Enjoyed it a lot.

Jay Ruane 36:05

That’s gonna do it for us this week, folks. Bye for now.

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