Welcome to the third edition of The Law Firm Blueprint’s #SummerSeries, where we delve into the strategies and insights that drive top-performing firms!
In this episode, hosts Jay Ruane and Seth Price are joined by Ben Glass, a pioneer in law firm coaching and the founder of Great Legal Marketing. Together, they explore the evolution of coaching in the legal industry, highlighting how the principles of business management and human behavior can transform law practices.
Listeners will gain valuable insights into building a practice that not only thrives financially but also provides a fulfilling work environment for both the firm owner and their team. Ben shares his 40 years of experience, discussing the importance of understanding your firm’s unique needs and the necessity of continuous learning and adaptation. The conversation also tackles the common pitfalls lawyers face, such as the lure of a “magic wand” solution, and emphasizes the importance of being brutally honest about your goals and the work required to achieve them.
Tune in to learn how to create a law firm that serves your life, your family, and your clients better.
Hello, hello. Welcome to this edition of The Law Firm Blueprint. I’m one of your hosts Jay Ruane, and my man over there, Seth Price, down in DC. But, we are joined by another man, a fantastic man who is with us today. And that is Ben Glass. Ben, thank you so much for being with us today. We’re happy to have you with us for this special summer program.
As we were saying before we went live, it’s a beautiful day, up and down the East Coast. Jay, so it’s great. It’s great to be here. Great to talk to you guys, as always. Loved, loved chatting riffing with you all.
And it’s a beautiful day to be a law firm owner when you get a chance to speak with Ben Glass, that’s for sure. Seth, what do you got to lead us off?
Well, look, Ben, you were one of the early players in this space. There wasn’t, you know, when you when you raised your hand, there weren’t many other people out there, saying that lawyers need to look at their law firms as a business. And we’d love sort of your long-term perspective on what you’ve seen and how you’ve seen the whole coaching of the law firm world evolve.
It’s really, it’s really changed a lot. And it’s good, because, you know, when you’re right when I started, there were a handful, literally one handful of people who were doing anything with trying to coach lawyers. Today, there’s many. Most of them are friends of mine, many I don’t know, because they’ve just now, I think, discovered the lawyer space and thought it looks kind of cool. So, they want to come and coach in the lawyer space. But most of the names that you would know, I mean, we all kind of hang together, we all have a different flavor, we all sort of have a different avatar member that gets attracted to us. And so it but it indicates that, that lawyers have recognized that yes, there’s more to this world than taking a good deposition, doing a good cross-examination. All really important. And we never, you know, we never dismissed those skills. But, in order to build a practice that really serves your life and your family, you do have to either acquire yourself business skills, or go out in the market and buy it and bring in, in-house I think or you know, or outsource to trusted partners, a lot of these business skills, everything from marketing to, you know, hiring and firing and culture and all of that stuff. So we’ve been in the space for I crossed over 40 years of practicing last October, and 20 years with Great Legal Marketing, you know, really formally coaching and, but really hanging out with lawyers who, who liked the philosophy of “yeah, darn it, let’s build something that’s really good for myself and my family.” First, let’s make it a great place to come to work, guys. And if you solve for those two things, a) for yourself and b) for your team, your clients will be well-served. And so that’s been our philosophy from day one. As you all know, the principles of this never changed the fundamental principles of human behavior, strategies, tactics, technologies, of course, there’s something new every day.
Instead of meaning I was curious to ask you, which is you’ve been doing this for a long time. And there’s a lot of stuff that should be true in theory, right? It works in other businesses, or it’s stuff that you’ve, you know, sort of professed. But is there any stuff that you brought to the legal space, where you’ve watched it, and while it may be factually right, it didn’t really work for lawyers scaling? Or, it may just and so differently, stuff that you think would really work, but you feel that the lawyers have not grasped that would really help them had they put, you know, pushed forth with that particular direction?
Yeah, that’s a big, those are two really big questions. So, I don’t think that there’s any particular strategy, whatever that that that won’t work. Why is that? Well, we’re dealing with human beings. And what we’re trying to do is whether it’s speaking to a jury, or speaking to a prospective client, we’re trying to persuade them, that we’re the leader that we’re the wise man or woman in the classroom or in the courtroom, or in the marketplace. Now, the things that Ben will choose to do that will be different from the things Seth and Jay choose to do, because you’re all going to have your own zone of genius. You’re going to have acquired other talent in your firms and in your companies who are good at things that are different from from what Ben is doing. And, so you know, so I think the the message then to lawyers would be, there’s something out there that fits your personality, your tolerance for getting your voice out there, your tolerance for spending and investing if that’s the way you want to go, and there’s going to be something there. And, I think what, what I’m really good at is speaking to the owner of a small law firm. So our target market is one to five lawyers doing anywhere from 400k, you know, to about 1.2 million, and then we can take them to five, and then we pass them off to somebody else, right, who’s better at that space. But we’ll take that firm, and we’ll help figure out where are you and where do you want to go? All right, and we’re going to really help them figure out the best use of their next dollar and their next hour, which for most firms, as you guys know, is first fixing your bad spends, fixing the holes in the bucket, listening to phone calls, making sure the website actually works. Before we, before we do SEO, let’s make sure that what we think is happening on the website and on the phones is actually happening. Start there. Most lawyers can start there. And they’ll have a higher ROI just by being a little bit curious about their own stuff.
I find one of the challenging pieces. It’s funny you say that, because it takes sort of, it’s always in vogue, and then you forget about and it’s back in vogue. But the moment you forget about it, you’re losing money. But one of those things that sort of funny that I’ve been thinking a lot about as we talk about scale, and should you scale is one of the topics of conversation earlier in the spring has been, you know, with scale does come new challenges. So, even if you can answer the phones great when you’re a two person shop, if you decide to scale and you’re five lawyers, and now you’re 1.2 million, you know, you may have multiple people answering the phones, and, one of those systems and processes, because you may not know that person as well anymore, as you did what it was just a couple of you guys.
Exactly. And so whenever we’re learning something, you know, this is a legal phrase, but whenever we’re learning something new, we’re gonna suck at it for a while, right? So, that just, that just is. And so and because in the small, firm market, like we don’t, you’re gonna grow from a million to three million like once, right? And then you go from three to five or whatever, once. And that’s a new skill set. That, oftentimes, as you all know, like the people that get you to a certain level, they’re not going to go with you to the next level. They can’t; they’ve reached their capacity. It’s neither good nor bad, it just is, right? And so now we have to acquire new talents. If you know how to go find them, that gets harder and harder, because the good people are oftentimes, you know, very happy where they are. But just understanding this is a part of entrepreneurship, like we have chosen to be entrepreneurs versus employees. And with it becomes opportunity for great gains, and you know, in all different realms of your life, but also challenges. Like that’s a heavy weight that you bear on your shoulders, for you and your family. And at each stage of growth, like, it’s just, we know this, we’re just solving new problems. And we’re often not good at that next level. So, we have to go out be part of coaching, you know. We’re all part of other people coaching groups, right? Why? Because there’s people that there’s someone out there who’s doing things bigger, better and faster than the three of us are over here. And there’s someone else on the left who isn’t doing things bigger, better, faster, but we can we can help them. That’s how the world goes round.
So then, one of the questions I have for you, and as you have seen hundreds, thousands of lawyers over the years. One of the things that I find is a challenge for many lawyers is that they’ve spent years in law school, then maybe years as an associate. And they are, number one, it seems like they are looking for a magic wand that is going to transform things overnight. And number two, they’re often not, and I don’t want to say self-actualized, because that’s a really deep turn, but there is a level of honesty that people need to have with themselves about where they want to go. And when you’re looking outward at what other people are doing, you may be tracking somebody else’s dreams and desires and not your own. How do you wrap people up and say, “Okay, we’re starting this journey. Number one, it’s work; there is no magic wand. And number two, you got to be brutally honest with yourself before you start this journey because otherwise, you’re going to be going off in the wrong direction.” And how do you rein people in? Because I can see people saying, “Hey, I’m spending money for coach, I’m expecting results. It’s been 90 days, where are, why am I not at seven figures already? I’m doing everything you tell me, right? I mean, there’s, there’s a journey that people are on. How do we get people to understand that it’s not going to be overnight and it’s not going to be easy?
Well, here’s one of the challenges is that the magic wand thing is being sold. So, my Facebook feed is filled with magic wand offerings for lawyers, right? And so there’s that there’s that challenge. The next is, okay, as coaches being willing to sit so someone will come to me and go, “I’ve been to this person’s thing, I was in this person’s thing, in this person’s thing. And nobody helped me.” I’m like, Well, I’m not going to help you either. Because I think they’re all three smart. The three people you just named, they’re really smart. And so go look in the mirror, because I think the problem is in the mirror, right? Taylor Swift, right? “I am the problem.” And so, I want so, in the Ben Glass personal brand, Great Legal Marketing, I just want to reject like, if you come here, so entrenched in that view that there is a magic wand… You either got to quickly accept that this is going to be work, or you can leave. I don’t want your money, and I’m not gonna be able to help you. It’s gonna be frustrating. Where do the three of us get the most joy from? I think from giving someone a lever, and watching what happens when that light goes off in their head, and they go, “Oh, I never thought about that like that before. And that’s why I think, you know, of all the work I do and all the work the three of us do, the most important thing is really running groups, often called usually call mastermind groups of lawyers. You get in a room. What do you find out when you’re in a room with, really, the most successful lawyers? A, they’re all kind of chaotic in some area of their life. Like, they’re really hurting in one
Do you see my desk right now?
Yeah, yes. So they all they all, almost all of them have like imposter syndrome and feel like, oh my gosh, I’m not really I shouldn’t actually be in this room. But also, what I have found is when you put the right room together, everyone is really willing to give. And so that’s what, like, if I’m vetting someone who’s coming to one of our groups, I don’t want someone who’s there to take, take, take, take. Like, you have to be willing to give. And, you know, forever my philosophy, I’m in Northern Virginia, like, if Seth wanted to come over and wanted to look at all my marketing, I would show him even though he’s in the same market, right? We’ve always said that, because whatever Seth would see in my stuff, or I would see Seth’s stuff, we would do it in a different way. We’re probably looking for different avatar clients. We’re building, obviously, different enterprises. Many lawyers have various practice areas. We’re five lawyers now, but we only know two things: auto and ERISA. So I know that’s a long answer to… I would reject those who I can’t convince, Jay, that this is work. But then I’m going to write, and I’m going to tell my story. And my story is not like overnight rags-to-riches; it’s a lot of mistakes, a lot of time, energy and money wasted. And if I’m authentic about that, then I will attract someone. And I do want to attract people who, like, if you come to me, and you haven’t spent some time reading any of my books, I’m like, how interested could you be? Like, because you could find out a lot about the way I think about the world. That’s who I that’s who I’m looking for. And, but the problem is, there are other people out there that are trying to sell the magic wand.
And that’s I think, you know, the coaching space, when you started, you know, the numbers that were out there then compared to what is out there now have dramatically gone up. And I feel like there’s also a dichotomy. I’d love to sort of get your thoughts on having played this space for a long time and seen a lot of the new players come, it seems that there is a split. You came out of the Dan Kennedy world where there was sort of like over-the-top to get people in, but it was usually in print, and it wasn’t as dramatic as some of the things that we see today, where there’s sort of promises of, I don’t wanna say sprinkling fairy dust, but things that would make it easy, where it really isn’t. What is your give me a little bit of your thoughts on the dichotomy between running and attracting people into a coaching program versus the heavy lifting that’s needed once somebody is there?
That so, so I don’t know that there is a dichotomy. Let’s just do it this way. So there are there are players in the market, who are running programs much, much bigger and more robust, if you want to say it, than Great Legal Marketing. By and large, they’re doing that by combining, very smartly in some cases, coaching and services. They’ll sell your pay-per-click, they’ll do your web, we’re gonna have coaching, we’re gonna do a video, we’re gonna have coaching. Well, that’s all very smart players. What I would say is, each one of those coach leaders is doing what hopefully what he or she believes is best for their own life. And they’re not selling B.S. I know most of them. I’ve spoken to all of them. I’ve been on all of their stages, and they have been on my stages. I think they’re all smart people. I think that, you know, it is some of these newer players that just kind of again, they pop up into legal because they think legal industry is got a lot of money and we’ll go and spend money on it. I’ve never wanted to work really hard, like, so I’m not going to chase. I’m not going to hard sell. I got a great practice, I have a great life. I get to referee and do CrossFit. And I got a bunch of grandkids, right? So, my life is really good. But it’s not your life. Like, you might want something completely, completely different. So, I don’t know. I don’t know if that answered your question.
I wasn’t I wasn’t talking anything. Look, I was saying that, in general, I’ll use this as an example. The late Stephen Fairley, I used to look at his marketing. And it was amazing, because he was an early adapter to Facebook marketing. And you would sit there, and it was very compelling, Facebook targeting. Now that’s not necessarily going to work for a law firm, right? That somebody says, “Wow, if he’s marketing me, if he could target me, I want to be able to work with this person.” And so there’s always been sort of a combination of what it takes as a coach to be successful. While there are certain business traits that are gonna be the same no matter what, I find that, very often, that people are picking coaches based on things, that once you get there, then the hard work sort of begins as that coach-client relationship. And that it’s just as somebody who sort of studies this, it’s interesting to see that in order to get through the noise of all those different coaching programs out there that claim that, and this is not saying that anything that you need to be selling in that mode to present yourself at some form or fashion. And that is you know, and I, the thing that I’ve seen is that nobody wants to hear, if anybody knew what it takes to run a successful firm, what you’re going to tell them to do in your class, it’s not nothing, what they need to do. And that as a and that there, that the marketing of it isn’t can’t necessarily lay out what that actually takes because nobody would want to, you know, sign up for that yet. Those are the things that if you want to scale, which means that you may not be at every soccer game, or, you know, at every CrossFit piece, and that there are trade offs that would need to be made in order to get there.
Yeah, there’s certainly. There’s certainly, you know, trade-offs at every stage of the game. And that’s why I talk philosophically from what would be a perfect life for you. And frankly, if someone says to me, I want to spend a bunch of money and get, you know, a thousand leads a week and whatever, I’d say, “Great, here’s three guys, you gotta go listen to” because because that’s not our that’s not our philosophy at all. It’s not the kind of practice we built, or that we have any experience building. And so I think that’s important is, you know, I do think we have a space in the market, because we’re running a law firm for real. And we, you know, we understand those conversations with clients at the table. But it’s not to say, because it’s interesting, because I see, because of my Facebook feed, because I tell Facebook, send me more ads like this, I’ve seen all of the ads that lawyers are buying. The lawyers are buying to target consumers to say, “Hey, hire a lawyer if you’ve been in an accident.” Some of them, and I don’t know if you’ve watched this, are outrageous: guaranteed results, bonuses if we don’t achieve the result, you know, 98% of Virginians who fill out this form got 25 times what the insurance company was offering. I mean, lawyers are gonna lose licenses, or they should, or be suspended or something. I don’t think anyone’s looking at these ads except me. I’m looking at all of them. Because I tell Facebook send me more. But it must be working for somebody, right? Or else they would never have wouldn’t have retention month over month.
But is it working? Or is it? Is it just that lawyers have more revenue that they can put into programs that may not necessarily work? I mean, you know, we, you know, if you’re in the PI space, you can wind up with $100,000 that you can dump into something that doesn’t work, because a case settled, you know, two years earlier for policy limits, and you didn’t expect it to. So now you’re sitting on money saying, “I gotta invest this in something, I might as well throw it at something and see if it sticks.” And that’s one of the things that I wonder, and I don’t know if you can answer this question. I don’t know if anybody can answer this question. If coaching, when you’re coming from the perspective of “I’ve actually built a lot for myself, buddy,” or “Hey, lady, like I’m doing it just like you’re doing it,” I think that sort of honesty, and knowing what’s different, I mean, about lawyers, I think it resonates. Number one, with the potential coaching subjects, right? Because you’re doing what they do. And there is some sort of, you know, code of the gladiator of lawyer to lawyer stuff, that somebody who’s outside the legal world, and it’s just targeting lawyers, because they think it’s a place to make money. You know, they don’t they didn’t suffer through the rule against perpetuities. They haven’t done what we have done. And so I, you know, I think in some respects, maybe you could break it down, on the lines of, well, are they a lawyer with experience running a law firm, or they applying general business principles to the legal space? Because, hey, general business principles are great, but I can pretty much guarantee that at some point in your storied career, you took a case because you felt for the client. And you said, “I’m not going to maximize revenue on this. I may break even when all said and done, but this person needs an advocate. And I’m that person.” And I know I’ve done it, I know Seth’s firm has done it, where they you step up and you take the fight just because somebody needs to do the fighting, right? And somebody outside of the legal space hasn’t necessarily that sort of passion for the law that I think does help. Would you say that?
Yep. So, yes. And we still do. Like, so one of the benefits of running a firm that’s profitable is you’re able to still today to go, yes, dammit, like, “Yes, I’m gonna fight against this insurance company in this case. It’s not very big. Because nobody else will.” And actually, then the insurance company doesn’t even know what to do with somebody like us. But you know, there must be because there are so many non-lawyer coaches in the space, who at least from the outside appear to be, you know, filling rooms or whatever. It’s always a little hard to tell what the economics are inside of anyone’s particular business, but they must be attractive to somebody. Because as famous as the three of us think that we might be, most lawyers in America, believe it or not, never heard of me, never heard Jay, never heard of Seth. That hurts our hearts, right? But I think that’s true. And so they get pitched by somebody who’s like, “I can, you know, we can send you five guaranteed retainers, you know, every week, or we’ll keep working until-” They get pitched by that. That’s the magic wand. They don’t know any different. They’ve never even heard of us. There’d be a lawyer who said.
And look, I’m one of the people you’re talking about. I’ve been bitten by those. So, it’s not like you. You know better, and you still go for this.
Haven’t we all? But, yeah. We’re testing.
Testing is what we tell ourselves. There’s sort of some talk. We’ve talked about on the show a lot, or not a lot but we’ve talked in the past about mindset versus actionable items from coaching. And, there are benefits to both. But I’d love to, you know, again, you are sort of, one of the stars of this space? Yeah. How do you sort of? Do you put them into different buckets? Does it all come together? Like as a coach? Or advising other coaches? You know, is it one or the other? Do you do both? What are your thoughts on that?
Robert Ringer, one of his books, is “Nothing Happens Until Something Moves”, right? So, mindset is really important. Like knowing what the journey is going to feel like is important. But until you put something into action, you’re just not going to know. So, Dan Kennedy and I, upcoming in August, we’re publishing the newest version of “No B.S. Time Management for Entrepreneurs.” And I wrote a section in there on making decisions, and I tell the story of how my lovely wife, Sandy, and I are different. I’m like, “Look, if the wrong answer isn’t going to be fatal, let’s at least make a decision. Put something in action. Maybe it won’t work. Maybe it won’t be the best vacation place ever, but if it isn’t, it’s not going to be like life-changing.” And Sandy will tend to analyze things a lot. And then if I say, “Oh, just decide this.” She thinks that I’m unthinking and haven’t, don’t care enough, because I haven’t thought about it. Now, I did think about it; I think that the wrong answer is not going to be fatal. So, so that’s what we try to instill in, you know, our lawyer members. Look, just because, I don’t know, just because Yelp might work in a place doesn’t mean it’s going to work in your place. Maybe it’s worth testing. I don’t know. But you’re never going to know for you, for your firm, Seth, unless you go and spend some money and test it and try to optimize it. I don’t know why I mentioned Yelp. I hate them. But it’s my personal opinion, just in case you might. But most lawyers are more like Sandy. And they want to analyze it because they only want to swing at the ball if it’s a high, hard fastball and they know it’s gonna go over the fence. But that’s, we know that that’s not going to happen. And you need reps, you need to at-bats so that you can get used to what’s a good test? Is my technology set to tell me if that dollar that went out is going to bring dollars back?Maybe that’s not perfect yet. And we just never know when we’re sitting around thinking about ideas. That’s great, and nothing happens. Like nothing happens until you go and you fail. And most of us fail a lot more than we quote succeed. And that’s okay. It’s all learning. Like we learned so many things in the last three years that don’t work for us.
I’ve definitely learned a lot more that hasn’t worked than what has worked. But I think that’s part of the process is just learning something. I want to bring up something that I saw that you did that I’ve been considering in my next space. And I thought your idea was genius. It mirrors something that another genius friend of mine, Josh Liao in Oklahoma, has done. When he constructed his office, he built an event space. He built an event space, and invited local nonprofits in to use it, because that was something that they couldn’t get easily locally. You have one where I saw a post on LinkedIn where you had paralegal training, and you were saying, this is a recruitment tool. And it’s thinking differently, like you’re providing the training, which is a wonderful thing. But then also, you can maximize that by seeing who is out there and is unhappy, and opening up the opportunity for them to come into your into your firm, because things are going so well at your firm. How can we encourage people? Is there a message you can send to not only think about the obvious, but think about the secondary and tertiary consequences of your actions? Because that’s where you really find gold that nobody else is mining in that area. Right?
Yeah. So I think so first of all, we like we were uniquely positioned because we’re running two businesses. And so having a training space serve both businesses. However, there’s lots of lawyers who listen to this, who run, who are estate planning attorneys who run events, and they are paying for hotels. You ought to seriously think about anybody who’s doing any sort of events, for their practice, should think about this. But then the life hack is this. And I’m pretty good at that. I’m really good at this, which is, if I meet somebody, I’m just, I’m ultra curious about their business. I’ll ask them. When I was, so as we’re recording this, I’m 10 weeks out of bypass surgery. Every nurse, every technician, I asked ask them about their lives. And what are they studying? And ask curious questions. If it’s a business owner, like what’s your biggest headache? What are you doing to get? And that’s how you start to see ideas. I think guys that are outside of legal that somebody else is doing and the normal legal brain says, “Oh, well, that won’t work. I’m a lawyer.” And our brain would go to, “How could I make that work? Maybe, even though, I’m a lawyer.” And so things likethe training space, things like running events that aren’t related to law, trying to think of some other things that that we have, well, the whole publishing of consumer books, like that Kennedy idea. And I was one of the first to bring that to the market, where and then running ads for the books, like running ads for the books, not for the services. And ethics rules allow you to say a lot more things about a book than it does about service. So there was all sorts of things there. How do you get someone to do it? I think you have to, you have to repeatedly show them stories of how an industry was changed, right? So the fast food service industry was changed, because somebody saw a bank teller handing money through a window, “Oh, gee, couldn’t we hand a hamburger now through a window? Like that’s how that part of the industry, the drive-up part of fast food, came about I believe. I’ve heard that story over and over from different sources. So, be curious about other people. Don’t talk about yourself, just interview people. They’ll think they have had the greatest conversation ever. No one’s asking him these questions, and they will be uplifted.
So before Jay wraps this up, I actually have a life experience. There was a guy in my fraternity who rushed. We rushed a whole bunch of people as sophomores. We got to choose the people for the next year. And we put, you know, you label them and you put up pictures. The first guy we put up, that everybody wanted in, was this guy. Right? And the guy ends up, becomes a pledge and a brother is the biggest zero I’ve ever met. So not interesting, so not who we would want in our community. That said, I went back to reflect on how was this? How was seventy guys this wrong? Right, about somebody? And it’s exactly what you said. He shut up, let us talk, laughed at our jokes. And we saw what we wanted in him. And I see that so much in business and in life. I mean, Hamilton summed it up with, “Talk less, smile more.” But, I think that there is so much to this, that when we interview, you know, the, the awkward pause, letting stuff come out. And that when when you do, that people can get through a lot of life just smiling and nodding.
Exactly. And, you know, and it’s kind of an easy lift to ask questions and then listen, like, listen to the answers. So Jay, that’s one of the ways that we can encourage anybody, whether it’s a, you know, a student, or somebody someone’s going off to college, like, this is how you can be successful in college, like, be really curious. And, you know, don’t just read out of the textbook.
You know, I can tell you that your event space encouraged me to actually build out a full video studio, that now my photographer is pitching to local nonprofits, “Hey, do you need pictures for your website and stuff? We can do that for you. We’ll take a link.” And that’s able to build our local presence that way. And we need the space anyway, right? And so it’s our way of doing something. I love the training space. I definitely want to get into that. But, Ben, thank you so much for being with us. This has really been illuminating. Folks, I don’t know if you’re out there, but we went from Taylor Swift and ended it with Alexander Hamilton. And we are a bunch of, dare I say, older white dudes. We are talking about Swifty and Alexander Hamilton. And so, I like to say this certainly ran the gamut. But thank you so much for being with us today, Ben. That folks, that’s gonna do it for us on this edition of The Law Firm Blueprint. Of course, you can catch us every week live 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific in our Facebook group, but you can always take us on the go by downloading The Law Firm Blueprint podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Especially now that Google Podcasts is done. I guess it’s YouTube podcasts. Everything’s changing in the world of podcasts. But that’s just the way it goes. Seth, any final words?
No. Hope everybody enjoyed it. And we’ll see you guys next time.
We’ll see you next time. Ben, thank you so much for being with us.
Glad you had me on.
Alright guys. Bye for now.
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