Welcome to another episode of The Law Firm Blueprint #summerseries! This week, Seth and Jay are chatting coaching with Melissa Shanahan, a law firm coaching expert. In this episode, they delve into the world of coaching, exploring different perspectives with one of the best in the business. Melissa Shanahan shares her journey and philosophy on coaching, focusing on productivity and business planning. With extensive experience in facilitating business retreats and consulting, Melissa emphasizes the importance of having a clear goal, a well-thought-out plan, and the execution of that plan. She highlights the three-legged stool concept: clarity, planning, and execution.
In this episode, while chatting coaching with Melissa, Seth and Jay also cover the similarities and differences between coaching in the legal and medical fields. Melissa notes that while there are many similarities, lawyers often have a brain trained for business ownership, making it easier for them to adopt necessary skills. The conversation touches on the importance of strategic planning, the challenges of scaling a business, and the need for patience and perseverance.
#LawFirmGrowth #Scaling #Coaching #SummerSeries #LawFirmBlueprint #SummerSeries
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Hello, hello, and welcome to The Law Firm Blueprint. I’m one of your hosts, Jay Ruane and with me as always is my man Seth Price down there in the BluShark and Price Benowitz headquarters. But we are joined by somebody special here this week. And we want to say hi to her coming all the way from out west. We’re, you know, we’re east coast guys. We’ve got Melissa Shanahan with us, Melissa, it’s so good to see you again and have you back on our show.
Thank you for having me back!
You saying that she’s from the west coast, is like, just, anyway-
Well it’s not really west coast, but it’s not east coast.
I’m more west, I’m more left. I should not say that right now this year.
Yeah you never know, you know, what people are gonna say if you say that you’re left. Alright Seth-
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Alright Seth, so we’re talking coaches, and we’ve got one of the best ones here. Let’s get right to it.
Right. So talk to us, you know, we have the series, we’re talking to coaches with all different perspectives, you seem to have carved out a nice, very nice niche for yourself with what I would say is, you know, I know there’ll be massive scaling in the future. But you’ve done remarkable things with a limited number of people, today. Tell us a little bit about your perspective and how you, you know, your philosophy, what you brought along, on your journey to coaching.
Yeah, I, you know, I had a long experience with coaching, but startup founders around productivity, it was kind of all over the place, I loved coaching, I loved the tools that I was learning to help people get to where they wanted to go. But I, it didn’t all really click into place for me until I worked at a consulting firm. And I was, you know, tasked with some specific things and trained on specific things. And as I went out into the world, my coaching background helped me immensely get, get results for the clients who were paying the company. And I learned a lot there. And basically, when I left I there’s there’s maybe an interesting story there about like, why let’s and all that. But, but when I left, I knew it was super clear to me at that point after hundreds, hundreds of retreat facilitations, at business planning retreats, I understood that it boiled down to do you, are you very clear about what you’re aiming for? Do you have a well thought out plan to get yourself there? And then do you actually execute? Do you honor the plan? And it sounds too simple. But there, if, it’s like a three legged stool, if one of those things isn’t done, you just spin you waste time, you waste money, you waste resources. And so it’s not about being in a hurry to get to where you want to go. It’s just about getting to where you want to go. So. So when I left, I was really clear that somehow there needed to be a framework where it, those are principles, and that they aren’t missed. It doesn’t matter who I’m working with, or what level they’re at, it- none of that matters. This has to be in place period. And that’s, though it is simple. It’s, it’s not easy. And people struggle with one or more of those legs of the stool. So I think that’s, that’s hopefully gives you a little bit to, of a background on why I wanted to set up the company the way that I did, um, so yeah.
So you had done some time in the medical space, correct?
Mhm. Dental and medical but private practice, private practice. So one owner.
I’m always curious to know the sort of similarities and differences, they’re all sitting there, right. The lawyers, one of the reasons I started BluShark Digital was that I went to, there was tons of people out there, who were spoon feeding things to lawyers that I thought was, you know, they could take advantage of the fact that the lawyers knew less. And so, and that, you know but that once you went beyond that, if I went to like an SEO conference, I learned all this really cool stuff. I’m curious to know how the the medical business coaching slash scaling world compares to what you’ve seen in legal.
It’s super similar. And that’s, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t leave thinking I’m going to work with law firm owners specifically, that happened because I was, I was doing the work for small businesses in general, which was super hard. Everybody says to niche down, but I didn’t know exactly what I want, niche I wanted to pick and God, what a grind to really learn the vertical of all these different kinds of small businesses.
Right had you done just family law or just criminal. It would have been-
Or, well I had, when I left I had a creative agency. Like, that was I mean, to dig in, the number of hours I spent preparing to lead that retreat. So, [inaudible] have talking about oh my God, I thought I can’t keep doing this. So I had different clients, but one of them was a law firm owner, and it translated, like I was like oh, oh, oh, oh. This is very, this is, I see a path here to be super helpful, super useful to this group of people in a way that will be like path of least resistance to provide as much value as you can, like that was, that was the law firm owners. So with medical and dental side private practices, speaking to private practices specifically, they get taken all the time, like they don’t know what they’re doing, they have a skill set, they’re really good at the skill set.
So it’s not just us.
No, it’s not just you. But I will say, there’s two main differences that popped into my head, maybe three, one is that I- a huge focus in medical and dental is space and equipment, I mean, budgeting, and oh, my god, it’s so different than what law firm owners have to deal with. So that’s a big deal. It’s a big lever, that you have to be very strategic around so that, I don’t have to think about anymore really, with law firm owners. And then the other is that I think lawyers have a, tend to have a brain that’s been trained in a way that sets them up in a better way, that there’s an advantage there for them to learn the skill sets that they need to learn to be a good business owner. So neither, neither school, you’re taught how to be a great business owner. But it is easier, I think, for lawyers to adopt some of the thinking that they need to adopt in order to be a responsible, good business owner. And the other thing I will say is, I do think it’s harder for lawyers than for doctors and dentists to sep- to work on the business versus in the business because lawyers are sitting at their desk most of the day. Doctors have gloves on or it’s gloves off. And if its gloves off, then its on the business.
They can do anything. Interesting.
So it’s easier.
Or it’s a slippery slope-
Oh
You could work with [inaudible] all day. And if it’s what you love, we all tend to move into that.
Yeah.
In one sense, its a coach hitting an uphill stream, trying to get somebody like, I look at myself right from day one of the, of this machination, its 20 years old, almost, you know, I was not in the courtroom, somebody else was, and I- that was quite a luxury. And as you go through the masterminds, that seems to be what people struggle with, which is, Jay does, I mean up until a couple of years ago, he was like, I gotta go to court, I gotta be seen, it was part of your being, it was part of your DNA, and getting somebody to say, you know, if somebody else was there, maybe it would be marginally less good. Or maybe I’d get marginally less networking, with those three hours, what could I do with them? And you know, and that’s, that’s easier, like, it’s easy to have this conversation academically. But in the moment, you’re like, it’s inertia. Like, I wake up, I put on my suit, I go to court, like, it gives you purpose and direction versus the unknown, which is, you know, lifting the hood and figuring out what, what do you want to be able to sort of improve today that may not even show results for weeks or months?
Well I think, you know, my read of the situation, too, is, you know, when you’re in the medical field, you know, your your patient flow is how you make money. And so it’s how many bodies or mouths Do you touch in a day, whereas for lawyers, once we get the client, we can kind of let the client go off into the, you know, to the other room, and we got to sit down and do the work. So, so, so in that respect, it’s not how many people I touch in a day to make money. It’s how much do I net off of a flat fee? Or how many billable hours can I get in? And really, you don’t want the client as part of that at all. I couldn’t imagine being a physician because I would hate to talk to that many people in a day. Like, even if I could do the work. I mean, I barley like talking to my clients now.
Yeah, it’s exhausting. And you’re on, you are on, the whole day. Like, and, you know, that job. I know, some people are better than others. But this is not untrue for lawyers. But that job is customer service to like, you have to listen and have good bedside manner and there’s times where you don’t feel like it. But you have to, you have to that’s part of what will help your business thrive and be sustainable and continue to grow and get referrals and it’s like it’s it’s a lot. There’s so many similarities. I think there are definitely differences but there’s so many similarities with doctors who decide to hang their own shingle and lawyers who decide to hang their own shingle.
So I have a question for you because you, you know, you have a unique sort of place in the market for coaches where you’re dealing with people who are, you know, starting to grow, starting to expand and, and what I have seen it from those people having known them as friends and been around them at conferences, is that a lot of times people are perfectly happy and content in their small little world and then they get a taste of what could be, and so then it’s okay I’m gonna bring in an office administrator, and we’re gonna write 150 systems, and we’re doing a new website, and we’re gonna, we’re gonna invest in SEO, and we’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna, you know, do all of these things. And it’s almost like they’re trying to do everything in the first month, once they’ve embraced this new philosophy, how do you, as a coach, really get people to sort of take a breath, slow down, focus on the core things, those three things that you were talking about? Because those core things aren’t the fun part, necessarily, you know, I know what I want to be. But it’s fun, looking at marketing ideas, or ordering new logos. That’s the fun stuff. Right? But the grind of the of the actual build is the difficult part. How do you rein somebody in? What should our audience be thinking when, hey, I have these opportunities, but I got to do the, the, you know, the slog first?
Yeah, I mean, will tell you, I’ll tell you how we tried to control that for people. And that’s through the work with them. But people can take what I’m saying, and they can apply this in their own way, right. I will not work with a law firm owner, unless it is centered around strategic planning, that has to happen. So I think, you know, I’ve been in situations in the past, whether it’s me, coaching someone, or whether I’ve been the the person who’s being coached where you’re sort of showing up week to week, and it’s like, so what do you got, you know, like, that, to me is a waste of time. Like, I have a therapist for that.
And I’ve seen that, I’ve signed up, like, I sign up for a lot of stuff. I test some, some I really need.
Yeah.
I’ve had that moment where it’s like, what do you, look, one of the great, there’s a business coach out there is considered one of the best in the business. He shows up, YouTube, what do you need? And like,
Yeah.
I was at work, but and I think I think it was Bill Biggs on one of our first in the series talked about, you know, first, what do you want? What Jay wants is different than what I want. And if you don’t know that, but that strategic planning stuff that’s painful, I mean, it’s very good. And it helps to, you need to have a beacon to go for. But yeah, each week, you know, what you find. And funny, I had this issue with my firm administrator before COVID, before he fell off a motorcycle. And our current firm administrator just came full circle to this point, which is, I want to start playing less whack a mole, and more, like, how do I move this? Like, the ship is no longer has holes in it, I fixed everything post COVID. It’s now time for me to figure out how, and look, we’re doing EOS, we’re doing all those things. But it is very easy to get into the what is on fire today? Rather than where do I want to be?
Right? Exactly. I think, you know, just, just like, what do you want? That’s, like, what are you aiming for? That’s the first principle. What are you aiming for? Do you have a plan, well thought out plan based on facts, not feelings, and then executing the plan. So when, when somebody comes in their first order of business, and we have group settings for this, we have private, so we do more of it for private, like hands on and not so much with the group, but we guide and help. So their job is to get prepped for their first retreat, the first full day business planning session. And so that means they need to pull data, we have a tracking template that’s like they can use and they can customize themselves, but they need their numbers. And they that’s very difficult to get at first for people. But then they figure it out. And then it’s not hard to get anymore, right. So they need data. And then they have to answer these series of questions that are about like, what are you aiming for? What does success look like to you? Because and everybody has a different answer to that, to your point what Bill Biggs was saying, that’s exactly true. But if you don’t know that, what are you lining yourself up with? It’s almost like, you have to be able to put a pin in the map and say, like, this is where we’re headed. Now there are 50 routes to get there. And some take longer than others. And some are, you know, more expensive than others and maybe faster. But you have to have a pin in the map. And then you can figure out your, your path. So really understanding and defining and painting the picture of what success looks like at this stage. Right this, and the answers always change. I make people answer that question every single quarter. And there’s, you can see it where people start and like this, the third quarter that the answering this, they’re like I mean, I answer this every quarter. But then the fourth quarter their answer is different. Like it’s worth asking yourself again every quarter. So they have to answer some of those questions, then we’re very clear about where they want to go. And then once those questions are, we facilitated that section, then the next section we go to is figuring out what does the firm need to do in order to provide you that success that that that you said, the picture that you painted. So then we start to back in and figure out and this is rough math, but we just start to figure out how big, like, what kind of revenue does this for me to do in order to be able to give me that if I want to take, you know, X percent, if I want to be able to as an owner, that’s what I take and, you know, thinking about, so you just sort of start to think through things. And then eventually we do enough of that massaging where we decide on a goal for the next year, specifically, that lines up with whatever it is you said, like, it’ll put you on track for that.
I’m curious, because we, you know, Jay and I see a bunch of different people, right, some people in hot seats on the show, I see a lot of, you know, seen hundreds, approaching 1000 different people through BluShark. What are the things that you see, when you sit down with somebody and you do your initial analysis of what’s going on? Can you tell upfront what’s gonna be successful engagement versus not? Or is there? Is it stuff that changes over time? Like, are there people that are just not ready for coaching yet? They want it, they have money, which is tough as a business owner, versus, you know, are, how do you? How do you go about first evaluating if it’s possible to be successful with them? And what are the telltale signs that somebody will be, you know, hit a home, run versus get value? I’m there’s value even if somebody is not ready to do everything, and has these calls once a week as some form of accountability, but what what are the telltale signs that somebody is ready to have a successful coaching engagement?
So it feels worth saying, I don’t come across a whole bunch of people that come to us that aren’t ready. And I think that’s mostly because I have a podcast, it’s five years old. People, people know what, what, what the deal is. And so when they’re coming in, it’s, it’s a conversation to make sure they feel like it’s a good fit.
Is most of your business via the podcast?
It is. It is, like I would say somewhere between 70 to 80% of the new business, is the podcast, it’s from podcast.
And you, are you finding that they know who you are, like any of these areas, it’s funny, because I listened, I remember listening to talk radio back in the day, and you get to the point where you know, a host, you know the answer to a question they’re being asked before they start to answer it. So you sort of get the philosophy of what that person is.
Right!
You know, they’re like, Okay, I’m in sync, I want what you’re producing.
Yeah, there’s a vibe that they feel comfortable with. And they, it’s, so by the time we have the conversation, most of the time, it’s a pretty easy decision. It’s what they thought when we talked or it’s not, and but I’ll tell you, the ones that I can sniff it in two minutes, it’s not hard at all, there is, it’s probably too vague to say someone’s just not coachable. Like, they’re just not ready. They’re not willing to listen, they, they talk incessantly, I want, and I want them to talk, I want them to do most of the talking. But there’s almost like this incessant nature to the conversation and pushing and telling me everything’s going right. And it’s like, where’s the opening there? You know, you can almost just see it if there’s not really a willingness, and sometimes I’m wrong. So I’ll feel that from someone. And I just have to ask the right questions to get them to calm down a little bit. And then and then there’s, there’s a, probably a win there for everybody involved. But I, it’s not very often I come across it. I don’t even know, I could think of a couple this year of consults that I’ve had that was just like, yeah, this is this is, this not a fit. And it never, and it always ends with me or them, like we say that at the end. It’s like, listen, I hope this was really useful. I do think there’s, that you should probably focus on x, y and z first. And, you know, it’s still fight if feels interesting to you, let’s have another call. But it’s, I basically just try to send them on a path that’s going to be productive, because you can tell someone’s gonna waste their money. That’s, that’s what’s gonna happen. And, and the community is pretty rich and strong. So I, I’ve tried to be thoughtful about that. You don’t, you don’t just want to let anybody in. So I would say it’s a lack of awareness, a lack of self awareness. That’s how you know, and they don’t need to be super self aware. They just need to be willing.
Jay, I think we’re gonna rebrand Melissa’s organization as the lawyer whisperer.
Oooh, I like that.
Okay!
I like that. I mean, the reality is, though, is that you know, there are so many people I see who are just like, you know, they get a little bit they, they smoke a little of the crack, and now that’s all they want to do is they forget about the client service end.
Yes.
They’re like, I’m going to be marketing, I’m going to be running this business. And you, they, they almost want to walk away from 100% of the fundamentals. I mean, I stepped out of actively handling cases, but only after years of getting my systems in place to do it and having best practices and then training people to come in. And I see so many people who are just like, hey, I’m giving you the keys, I’m off to go do the fun stuff. And I’m going to go to every conference I can go to, I’m going to, you know, I’m going to do the ones I’m going to go to the digital marketing conferences, the self development conferences, and the legal conferences. They’re constantly on the road. And they’re, they’re just, they’re not really getting anything out of these things. They’re just saying they’re showing up. And just because you show up doesn’t mean that you’re actually getting anything. And if you don’t apply it, right, you know, you’re just going to party.
Right. That’s so true. Okay, so let me go back to that, to, to I don’t know how we got off track there, to finish the answer to your question, Jay. So people have that. And I guess what I what I experienced more, the, the flavor of that inside of velocity work clients is that they are in such a hurry to get it all done. Because they want relief it is, like it is, they’re so sick of the same issues. They’re so sick of having post its on the computer screen with ideas or systems they need to fix. It’s been there for nine months they’re.
It’s literally right underneath your face.
They’re just tired. And so they want it all done now. they want to fix they want like this perfect firm. And you just have to help them realize that that’s not how this works. And you have to trust the process, the things that need to be prioritized first will be, and there’s a framework that we lead people through a strategic planning. So it forces people to constrain down to say, these are the few things that are going first, and then they’re on the hook for it, there’s accountability for the follow through on those things. So and then at the turn of the next quarter. There’s, they surface the next and they surface the next and, you know, you start to get momentum, but most people don’t give themselves that chance. Because we’re trying to just go with everything all at once. Mostly because they, they’re they’re burning out. They’re tired. In many cases, they feel broke, like they are sick of the reality that they have. And so they’re trying to shift it as fast as possible, which is an irresponsible way of moving forward. Well,
So I, great irony on this Jay. If you, I am in the midst of something right now, family wise, but if you closed your eyes, and listened to that, and substituted kid or family into it, it’s really no different. It’s no, it’s like, it’s a truism for life. It’s not just law firms, you know, kid is struggling with all these things. If you try to just say, hey, it’s gonna be magically fixed. It’s not, It’s like taking on something, getting it, moving it, having realistic expectations, meeting people where they are. I mean, again, I’m not doing it justice. But if we literally replayed that, it was like shockingly similar to parenting.
It’s funny. I mean, before we came on the air, I got a text message from my wife saying that we need to celebrate tonight because my 12 year old son, for the first time this year, did the extra credit assignment in math class. And she’s like, we got to make a big deal about this, it’s finally clicking for him, he got two extra points on his final grade and that, you know, it’s gonna help them. And I’m like, it’s taken us a while to get there. But that’s the thing like lawyers, doctors too, and maybe you can speak to it. You know, we are sort of like the kings and queens of delayed gratification. You know, we didn’t get a job. You know, most of us right out of college, a lot of people went straight into law school or went to law school at night while they were working. So, you know, it’s like, okay, I see the brass ring is three or four years down the line, then you get into a career, you gotta learn the craft that takes a couple of years, then getting the PI or the criminal case or whatever, you know, you get a case you got to work through discovery and depositions before you get to the trial. We are, we are living a life of delayed gratification, but then they get to this part of the business side. And they think it can happen overnight. And it’s just I think you’re right, I think it just comes from just incredible burnout. And they need they just they want solutions and they’re like am I stuck in yet another place where I’ve got to work really hard because the family life is hard. The business is hard. The clients are hard, loving the law and being good at it is hard. It’s none of this is easy. If it was easy, everybody would be doing it. Right?
Exactly. Exactly. Everybody be doing it.
Any given day, the life, and you get this coaching people, Jay and I go from we figured this shit out. Jay is going to be moving to the West Coast of Florida, I’m going to be in Europe for two months in the summer, like just, you know, working the afternoons, touring in the morning. And then you’re like, oh, shit, this is a house of cards, I need to get paid. You know, as another another friend of the show, you know, from New Orleans would say, somebody in this firm is fucking something up at this very moment. You know, and it’s like, and it’ll be okay. But it is, it is definitely a game. Like I think that at, that which scale comes to a certain degree, a game of Whack a Mole, and I’m guessing that working with you, and putting systems in place, and having focus and having a strategic plan means a lot less of it. But it’s still, you know, what, two steps forward one step back?
Yeah, yes, definitely. And I, you know, also, gosh, there’s two things I want to say to you guys. One, I would say I just had a conversation yesterday with someone who is feeling really defeated. There’s just a bunch of things happening all at once, like, someone who’s pregnant is out sick a lot. And it’s a key person, there’s another key person in the firm that’s in the hospital, there, and has been for a week, they had a COVID outbreak. So people, it’s, everything is dumping at once. And the owner is having to just handle it.
And that’s not unique. We had three people out on serious to life threatening leaves from the executive level, you know, in a period of weeks, it feels like, and, you know, like, you’re like the people you put in place. We talked about building this team building, manage-, building, and then all of a sudden, they’re not there, for whatever reason, hopefully short term, not long term. It’s just really, really tough/
Yeah, it’s like, everything starts to dump on you and you in and I mean, this person has created an extraordinary amount of success for themselves in a short amount of time. And, and I, is tired, hasn’t done any marketing, the firm has just grown, and it’s been growing, and she’s trying to keep up with it. And, you know, I’ve felt for her, you know, you know what that feels like, you know, when you feel crushed by your business, and I felt for her and she said, I’m so it feels like I’m taking one step forward, five steps back. I said, that’s just because you’re in what you’re in right now, the truth is, you’re taking, you know, four steps forward, three steps back. That’s the nature of things. Like, this is not just a straight up and to the right, like, that’s not how this works. So, you know, success is sort of the spiral up, and in the spiral, there’s some down stuff, that’s not fun. And it feels like taking steps backwards. But that’s the game, you know, like, how can you, and you’ve learned to handle those differently, and better, you’re not surprised as often when they happen. You put some protections into place, like it’s all an evolution. And it’s, it’s, it’s tough. And so anyway, I something that you said, Jay, made me share that, like, Yeah, its-
Interesting that you bring that up, because, you know, we’re going through, you know, I’d say a thunderstorm right now, I’ve got six pods that work together, four of my pod leaders are going to have babies this year, one just had one this week one, had it a month ago, we’ve got two more coming. And I can remember going back now, 20 years ago, when we had one paralegal for myself, and my partner, and she had a baby, and we were going to have three months without somebody in the office. And we freaked out back then, like we didn’t have systems, we didn’t have, you know, a way to tap into other people, you know, and so I think the thing for us is back then I built up some some muscle memory. And so when I got in the span of a month four people saying, I’m pregnant, and I’m gonna have a baby later this year, and I knew we were gonna have people out and we give generous benefits. And we want them you know, our, we’re a family focused firm and that type of thing. I was just like, ah, we got this, we can figure this out. I wasn’t, I wasn’t gobsmacked like I was 15 years ago with just one person doing it. Because I built up the skill to be able to do it, the problems you address are going to be bigger, but they’re also, you’re going also, going to have things that you can rely on in your history and your memory to be able to do that stuff going forward. And you just have to sort of trust the process. But it doesn’t start until you start doing it the right way from the beginning, I think. And that’s, because if I was just if I had just scaled without any systems, we’d be on fire constantly. And that’s one thing I’ll add to this, and I don’t know if Seth, if you’ve done this, or most of you have seen this, we actually promoted somebody who’s been with us for 15 years. She is now the firefighter, we got her a little thing. And that’s, and her job is to interact with marketing, with intake, with all the legal pods. And if they would otherwise come to me, they go to her first and then if she can’t solve it, then it gets escalated to me. She’s now on the leadership team as our firefighter in chief. And he’s sending me messages saying, I kind of have nothing to do right now. Everything seems to be going just fine. And I’m like, I love hearing that, I’d rather pay you. And we can find other things to fill-
I’m cynical. I like, again, I, God bless. And, you know, Jay and I have a discussion. How long have you had this person doing this?
She’s now in for eight, her eighth month.
Eighth month doing it. Okay, so we, good news is he’s past the six month world, which is, we have a rule, you gotta like do it for six months before we talk about it. No, you know, you talk about it. But like, everybody’s so excited. I just hired Melissa as my coach. It’s amazing. Okay, let’s go six months in, and have you moved the needle? Yes or no? Right. There’s this amazing thing. So with that? The question is, is, is that the right way to do it? Probably a question for another day, we won’t take Melissa’s time with this. But like, is it that if you have systems set up that the person at the top of each of those pyramids should be doing the firefighting and not somebody who’s a jack of all trades? Versus having a person specifically for that? Or is it essentially an executive assistant to you, that just plays interference for everything that’s going on?
Well the reason why I created it was after I got the first two people to tell me they were pregnant.
Right.
And then I knew other people were trying with their partners, I said, oh, this is going to be a problem. I need somebody in this role, otherwise, I will be subsumed with fires.
When you say fire, is fire- so and I think, to me, and that can bring us back to Melissa, the question is, okay, great. Is that, is it because, this is something that I struggle with, with our own head of ops? And that we, I sort of mentioned at the beginning of the show where the the idea is, is somebody in that role? Like, how much of it should be put, the whack a mole that I do? And how much of it should be planning and building and running and they’re, all their direct reports, do you have a thought on that as far as how you balance the whack a mole at the firm, which is essentially, I’m calling the firefigher or whatever you want to call it, versus making sure that you aren’t just complacent, doing what’s there, but that you’re constantly looking forward and pushing it forward?
I mean, I think so, more traditionally, it is the person sitting in the in the bucket, in the seat that, you know, firefights for their own department. And if they have trouble then they move up, but, but, I just want to say I think what I’m hearing, Jay, is that you instituted it because the people in the buckets were going to be out. So that who’s gonna fight the buyer. So you needed somebody? So I guess one question I have is, in your mind, was it a temporary position until everybody’s through?
No. Okay, I’m gonna keep it. Because I want I want to reduce the time suck on me.
Yeah.
I’m happy to pay somebody.
Do you have an accountability chart?
Yes.
What? Where are they? What, I was trying to, like, see the structure.
So they are like, essentially, they’re a pod unto themselves.
Like, in line with the other departments.
In line with the other departments, and the other departments can tag, can tag them in as necessary. It’s like having a bench on a sports team. Like, you know, it’s a utility, my utility player, and I found that-
You know that, you know, the concept of cross functional meetings. Yeah, it’s almost like, it’s cross functional. That department is cross functional with all the other ones.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just, and I know that this costs me money. And I don’t, I don’t, I’m not going to, hopefully, I don’t need a full time person in this role.
Yeah.
But I’ve decided that I would, having this full time person in this role, gives me a level of confidence and, and an ability to mentally break away from the firm myself, that I know somebody else is running interference. So that if I do go on vacation, or I just, I want to go see a movie in the middle of the day, or whatever. I know that someone else is getting that first call, and it’s not going to be on to my slack blowing me up.
Yeah.
And I can be involved when it’s necessary. And that’s a worthwhile expense for me, because it gives me peace of mind. It’s not for everybody. And it’s not until I got to a level of revenue that I can say, hey, I’m willing to give up x to get y.
So I’m just gonna say this is a, this, this position is a luxury position.
Oh, absolutely.
Like, you get to do what you want. Right? So I think that there’s really kind of a beauty-
I could have a line of people at my door, saying, I got a problem. But now I don’t, I can do stuff with you. You know, and I don’t have to worry about having a line outside my door.
Okay. But this is like this is this is a point. I hope this is a takeaway for everybody is that the only reason that you are in a position to play around and experiment with that kind of money is because of how intentional and deliberate, in systems and processes like I mean, you didn’t you, you didn’t build the firm you have by going at everything all at once. And it’s done in a year. Like, that’s not how this worked. And so, there is sort of like kind of full circle, you have to be deliberate. And you have to constrain down your focus on what is top priority. And then and then, and then let the next thing surface and then then the, you know, commit to the next batch of things. And how, you know that how you eat an elephant, one bite at a time, like, how do you create this firm, your ideal firm, no matter how bad it sucks right now for where you are, it is going to take time. And the more dialed and, like clearer that you get about what is next? And then what is next, the faster you will put yourself on a path of relief. And I, people can do that on their own, there’s no question. But sometimes it’s nice to have a partner. Sometimes it’s nice to just say like, can you take the cognitive load out of this for me? How do I, how do I? How do I build what Jay and Seth have built, you know.
My purpose of this really is, you know, it gave me what I want out of my firm, which is more freedom.
Yes! And-
You know that’s, that’s what I-
But that’s your freedom.
That was my goal. It wasn’t to travel 20 weeks a year, I just wanted more time freedom, because like Seth knows, I like going to the Little League games. I like watching soccer for my like, that’s what I like to do. And I want to have that time available. So I built a system, I built a firm that supports that. And I think that’s, now it’s ingrained in our culture, which is why I’ve got so many people having babies, because you know, we’re very pro family at my firm. And that’s the way we want to be, and we understand it’s going to impact revenue, it’s going to impact a lot of things. My first conversation with getting new hires, you’re not going to be a millionaire here. But you’re going to be at all your kids games, if that’s what you want. Come work here. If you don’t, go do PI at a mill. And go be be millionaires someplace else, because it’s not going to be here.
Right.
That’s all I have to say about that
I love that.
I think that’s gonna do it. I mean, this has been really illuminating for me. I don’t know about you Seth, What do you think?
This is this, is great.
We gotta get Melissa on again, this is, t’s, you know, having her once a year, it’s not, it’s not enough because there’s, it’s always such a great conversation.
I love that, you guys are so fun to talk to, and bounce things off. Like that. That was super fun to think through. And, you know, there’s no like, perfect structure. And so thinking through like what works for you, how did that work? But, but I do think realizing a lot of the things that you guys are talking about with, it is a luxury and you can’t just like you should not be having a $500,000 firm, where everybody’s a little overworked and you’re gonna hire a firefighter, like that is not how this should go. So,
I didn’t get to that point until I was 10 times that.
Exactly.
You know what I mean? Like and then so you need to, you need you need to be intentional about the stage you’re in, I think.
Yes,
The grass is, like I say, the grass is always greener, but everyone’s got dirt underneath the grass, and no one sees that, you know, that’s the truth.
Yeah, well, hey, anytime you guys want to chat or talk through ideas or whatever, I’m here for it.
Alright, awesome, folks, folks, that’s gonna do it for us this week on The Law Firm Blueprint, of course you can take us anywhere you want to go by subscribing to our podcast, be sure to give us a five star review if you do that. Otherwise, you can catch us on LinkedIn live. You can catch us live in our Facebook group 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific, every Thursday, and that’s going to do it for me, Jay Ruane he’s Seth Price. She’s Melissa Shanahan our guest for today. Thank you so much for being with us. Bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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