Jay Ruane  00:07

Hello, and welcome to this edition of the Law Firm Blueprint. I’m one of your hosts, Jay Ruane, and with me, as always, is my man, Seth Price, down there in the DC, Maryland, Virginia, South Carolina, Timbuktu, headquarters of Price Benowitz and BluShark Digital. It’s the summer officially. How’s it going for you? I saw you hit a little Yankees game this weekend.

Seth Price  00:31

It was great. The summer is here. Got kids off to camp, got to see the Yanks with my son. About four, four long-lost college buddies. And I gotta say the Yankee Stadium is sort of a metaphor for everything that is good and bad with our society. It is great to be there. It’s my childhood. It’s, you know, Judge being this. But with Judge comes a massive salary. With massive salary comes, you know, a true tier version of baseball. We grew up at a stadium where you bought a ticket, when the fat cats left down by the dugout, you went down no more, right? The legend seats. Look into those legend seats. Oh, there’s a boat. So I had never been in the legend seats. It is, it is decadent. It is gluttonous. As my son said, it was ridiculous. Of the buffets in end of days better than anything at a sporting event anywhere

Jay Ruane  01:23

The wall of candy.

Seth Price  01:24

The wall of candy. The wall of like, lobster tails. I mean, you just can’t make this stuff up. That said. I mean, it’s just the optics are not good. It is the fact I like, when I’m in charge, there’s going to be a line of true fans on the side, like, like, like, placeholders at the Oscars. And then when people go in for the air conditioning and go to get their lobster tail on their wall of candy, you get to go in and sit. Why do we have empty seats on TV? It’s crazy.

Jay Ruane  01:54

That’s a really good point, you know. And it’s, and it’s interesting, because obviously, the Yankees are investing a ton of money into those seats to give an elevated experience, and maybe the people don’t even appreciate it.

Seth Price  02:06

I think they do it to just the opposite. I think it brings people who wouldn’t go otherwise. You know, you people, they’re, you know, you’re going to the game, and maybe, maybe not, you’re going for the legends experience. I mean, you know, it’s like you’re in Vegas, people are piling up their thing with steaks and sushi and, like, it’s, you’re not there for the baseball, I think is the point.

Jay Ruane  02:28

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I had had, you know, Yankee tickets years ago, and it struggled. I struggled to give them away. You know, when I had four seats in the, you know, in the mezzanine level. But two years ago, when I got legends, I got season legends tickets, which were pricey as heck. I had no trouble giving those away.

Seth Price  02:50

No, that’s the point. That is exactly it. And so what did they go? What was the buy in for minimum buy-in for a legend seat?

Jay Ruane  02:58

I think I spent like $80,000.

Seth Price  03:00

Like 500 a seat type of thing?

Jay Ruane  03:02

Something like that, yeah, and a half season, right? I remember, like, I didn’t get all the games I got, like, I got, I got 40 games.

Seth Price  03:10

These were banker seats. So these were, like, you know, six behind Jimmy Fallon’s area, you know, it was, it was crazy, because they’re legends. They’re legends, I assume.

Jay Ruane  03:17

Right, exactly, yeah. I mean, it depends on where you are. Like, I was, I was in the section with Bill Murray, who comes to two games, but they have, you know, in the course of a season. I mean, maybe with his son, Luke, now in the tri-state area, he might come to more, but that was what was pitched to me, Hey, you’re in the Bill Murray..

Seth Price  03:35

Bill Murray section, great. So I’m sitting there and I’m like, look for me as a baseball fan, it was freaking awesome. You know, you’re in this protected area. You know, the foul balls are being tossed to the stands. My son Chase three down for the kids in our section. It was, it was a blast. That said, the exclusivity piece, it just rubs me the wrong way. There should be, you know, there should be access.

Jay Ruane  03:58

You know it’s interesting back in the old stadium…. And I know that this probably doesn’t interest anybody at all that’s listening to us, but we’ll get to the good stuff soon. Back in the old stadium, I can remember being 21 years old, and I went down with a buddy of mine to catch a game, and we just wanted to scout tickets and two bankers came over, and they’re like, you’re looking to go to the game? I’m like, yeah. He’s like, Listen. He’s like, I got a business deal going on, but I got four tickets. If you guys can sit next to us and be absolutely silent, except for cheering for the game, but don’t pay attention to what we’re talking about. 50 bucks. You could sit with us, and we were two rows behind home plate. This was before Legends Club. And yes sir.

Seth Price  04:34

Well put it this way. You know, they weren’t that big a shot if they were charging you.

Jay Ruane  04:40

Right exactly, totally, but, yeah. I mean, hey, look, I think I paid for, you know, back then, you know,

Seth Price  04:46

That was nothing, yeah, that was an expensive seat. I mean, that was, you know, I get my again, tell my grandfather my youth was $1.50 in the bleachers with the subway was 90 cents each one. It’s $1.80 for the subway, $1.50 for the bleachers, and I feel bad because you don’t have that access anymore. I guess when the teams suck, you do, but when they’re good, or you’re in a mega market, you just don’t.

Jay Ruane  05:10

Yeah and kids are not getting the same type of experience. I can remember skipping high school once and going down to a game.

Seth Price  05:17

Senior year, I cut with my English teacher for Yankee opening day, it goes down the legendary spot, like, Where’s Mr. Cola? Where’s Seth, Yankee opening day must be there.

Jay Ruane  05:28

That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So Seth, I want to talk to you because it’s six months into the year now. We are, we are. We’ve gone through two quarters. And the big question, really is, is, how are your numbers looking? Because it gets very easy for us, as we’re sort of in a rhythm, to just throw money at problems. Do you do anything halfway through the year? Just be like, Hey, where are we budget wise? What are we spending our money on? Where are we wasting money? Because it I go every November, December, and look for my cut month. What am I overspending on? But, you know, you get you get control of it. Now you can save some serious money. So what do you guys do in that, in that respect?

Seth Price  06:08

Well, you know, I, for me, I’m a tale of two cities, right? I have the personal injury side of the practice, which is for the first time, and all the time you knew me, it was building, building, building. This year, God willing, perhaps it will equal the rest of the firm, first time ever, and PI is very different. I know you pride yourself on not being a PI lawyer, but there your revenue isn’t coming in. So we’re having, we’re looking at it like, oh shit. I mean, it’s scheduled, but your money comes in later fourth quarters, when you make your money, so you’re underwater. And now the question, Are you self funding? Are you financing whole level of sophistication that’s not talking about expenses on the on the fee for service side. We’re seeing, you know, it’s a little tightening of the belt. There been some, some months that weren’t as good. We’ve had some great months, but it’s, you know, you know, with the volatility from the executive branch, you know, we’re seeing ups and downs. It’s not, you know, high fives and everything’s great. Some quarters are great. But what’s interesting, and I think what you’ve liked over the years talking about criminal or family or whatever, these fee-for-service areas are that we, we talk about what we, what we, you know, have noticed is, you know, it goes up incrementally. You’re not going to have, there’s no trucking case, there’s no major med mal that’s going to make right here. So you have to have the fundamentals dialed in. And one of the things I think I’ve struggled with is, as we’ve built, look, I know this is largely many of the firms listening, but we’ve 50 lawyers, kind of crazy. And with that comes expense, overhead, the middle level management we always talk about, but then the question is, the accouter months, the summer parties, the different end of year parties, and how are you spending money, and how do you spend it in a way that’s meaningful? I think that’s the biggest question, which is, as you expand, figuring out what. Increased salaries are always good. We always talk about benefits. Some people go all out on benefits. Some say I’d rather put more into salary. There’s always a balance, right? You know, are you going to ever lose somebody because your benefits aren’t as good if the salary is much higher, having that thing? And I think now we’re sort of struggling with, you know, their firms that are five people, and they go to the DR or  Cancun right off site. 

Jay Ruane  08:18

Can’t do that when you’ve got 100 plus? 

Seth Price  08:20

Yeah, well, you know, almost 200. 

Jay Ruane  08:22

And can’t do it if you’re like, 40 plus I think. 

Seth Price  08:23

Well, you can do anything you want. It’s just dollars. And you know what is impactful? What moves the needle? I’m now at the point almost like it’s come full circle, where departments may be more powerful for socializing than the full firm. You know, firm is nice, but it doesn’t get the same stickiness or traction as that smaller group just had a life event where we did something. We do a bunch of stuff at my house, Dave’s house, we both have nice houses pool in the back. You know, when you bring third parties, when you bring referral sources, they have no problem going there. Staff. Would staff rather not be at a stuffy partner’s house? I don’t think I’m stuffy, but, like the rest of the world, doesn’t think I’m 25 years old. I’m not a 24-year-old hipster, you know, like they, I think they look at me as this middle aged guy, and now I have to go to somebody’s house, and is my kid gonna misbehave? And, you know, so we are sort of at that coming of age moment, like, do we end up? You know, we did this in the past, you go to a park instead of, I’d rather be in the confines of somebody’s house where you can, you know, have everything inside, but is a neutral site better? What? What? How can we meet people where they’re at and things have changed, like COVID was a big, big disruptor about what people want. There was a rhythm before COVID, you’re in the office, there’s a weekend event, and now I think that because there’s less of a connection to the office, there’s you have, the bonds are slightly less strong, and that interpersonally, and that’s why you do other stuff, but there’s less of a demand for it. I mean, when you think about how many people met their spouse. At work or made their best lifelong friends. I just went to a reunion for Swindler, the firm that I started at years and years ago. And these are people 30 years ago, and they still love coming to reunions and seeing each other, you know. Do we have any you know, we’re trying our best to keep culture and keep those connections, but it’s, it’s not, you know. And then where does money follow? Meaning, like, there are things you could do that are very inexpensive, that people may love, but figuring out what somebody actually wants rather than what do you think they want? 

Jay Ruane  10:33

Yeah, I think with the number of people, everyone’s wants are going to be different. It’s a lot easier when it’s you, maybe another lawyer, a paralegal or two, and even today, you know, we have a lot of listeners who are maybe a small operation, but they have two remote people, and those remote people are in the Philippines or in Central America. Well, if you’re a firm of seven, and you know, two-thirds of your people are remote, how do you do something that includes them? Because it’s probably not in your budget to fly in. And given the current, you know, you may not be able to get a visa. It may, you know, oh, and, and if you fly everybody someplace that takes productivity down, and when you’re a fee for service, and you close for five days, that can dramatically impact your profitability and your ability to land clients. I, you know, I always push back. I always hear, you know, in some masterminds that I’ve been in for the years was, well, you got to close the last two weeks of December, because that’s, you know, that’s a treat to your employees. You reset. And I’m like, the last two weeks of December for criminal practice is like the best two weeks of the year. Our phones are ringing off the hook.

Seth Price  11:43

And PI you know, not the last, but December. No, no, you got to bring the money in. You know, last week, maybe is dead, but up until then, you’re trying to get stuff across the finish line. That’s your yours. No, you can’t. You can’t wait for the end of the year for everything to come in and then not be all in.

Jay Ruane  11:59

Right. So it’s, it’s, you know, and it’s, I know I couldn’t close at the end of December. I just know I couldn’t do that and maintain a profitable firm. Plus my people are sort of in a rhythm, right? And, and they’re, they’re taking them out of that rhythm, would upset the, you know,  balance in the firm. And it’s interesting because I go by and I’m, you know, I’m sitting down with my bookkeeper this week to see where are we over budget of what we projected we would spend in each area. And I know we’re under in a couple because I made some moves like, you know, I I took some time myself, and I said, why? I know we have AT&T and Verizon, but we seem to be paying an awful lot. What can we do better? Turns out, we could do a lot better.

Seth Price  12:48

Was inspired by you on this, you know, I just, you know, I had USAA, it was more expensive years ago. I looked again, saved $3,000 you know, on homeowners insurance, bundled in random stuff. But I’ll sort of conclude this with, you know, we, we start with as you’re bigger, you’re you’re delegating for other people to see expenses. And part of it is, what’s their value of money? Like, you know, are they, you know? Are they ordering from a place that has its own delivery versus using GrubHub that hasn’t? And again, incrementally, these things won’t matter,

Jay Ruane  13:19

Yeah but if you watch the dimes and the quarters, the dollars add up for themselves.

Seth Price  13:25

They do and we just had a life moment where there was a piece of software we’re talking for years about getting some pre employment testing. We’ve gone back and forth. We couldn’t we finally, you know, galvanized on on a software won’t say the name of it, because I’m gonna tell the story. And, you know, they started as some absurd number, and it came down and it came down, and, you know, they’re like, oh, you know, I’m making this up just using round numbers. Went from 20 down to like, 13.7. Like, I thought, that’s a great deal. Like 10. I am comfortable with 10. And they came to me last week. Oh, there are 10.7. And I’m like, You know what? I’m going to New York. It’s the last day of the quarter. You tell them you’re authorized for 10, and if they want to do the deal, great. If they don’t, they don’t. And you know what, they signed it at 10. So I think that, like this is the piece that I’m going to sort of ask you to opine on. We need to delegate, because otherwise it’s just us, but if we delegate without those best business practices I have in my firm, I have Salesforce, I have smart advocate, I have Clio. I’m not always in on those negotiations, but as I see this, the empty chair is worth a lot now it’s a lot different when it’s a new software. Once they have you, they have you, they have you. With Salesforce you don’t switch, right? You know, once you’re in. So a lot of it’s that first time sign up is a big, big deal. But how do you balance wanting to provide, you know, get yourself out of it, be able to delegate, while at the same time knowing there’s a real dollar cost if you’re. Not still involved.

Jay Ruane  15:02

So what I have traditionally done is I have, when we have things like that, like when I have my my firm administrator planning an event, or I have a particular pod, because we’re now doing pods are getting together, sort of like you said, like the department, you know. We’re smaller. We’re pods. We’re giving a pod of an annual budget that they can use however they see fit. Is it for lunches? Is it for whatever? I’m actually talking right now to my leadership team, I’m going to be stepping out of a role that I’ve sort of overseen, which is our CRM development. It’s one of the last thing, yeah, but I’m the one who comes up with the good ideas to

Seth Price  15:44

I understand. I just think you should be outsourcing that stuff.

Jay Ruane  15:48

Right, but so we’re, we’re insourcing it, right? I have a, I have a team member who’s going to transition into sort of an IT role, because that’s his interests, and he’s going to take it. So we’re discussing, what budget do we give him for upgrades, modifications, that type of thing? So we’ve averaged the last couple of years, and we’re doing so I’m going to say, Hey, dude, you have 30,000 or you have $60,000 to make improvements to this thing, but that’s your budget for the whole next year. You got to spend it wisely. We’ll probably release it, you know, quarterly, that type of thing and, and I don’t know, I mean, that’s one of the things. Like, it’s, it’s guidance, but it’s giving them ultimate autonomy, because if they want to blow it out on one thing for…

Seth Price  16:32

Right, so there you’re capping it. That’s one way of doing it. But when it’s stuff like you’re dealing with, you know, things like rent, things like software, and it’s like these, like, because I always say, Go, look at your bottom, your top 20% of expenses. The problem is, a lot of stuff gets locked in, and you know, you’re stuck with and so the question is, how much you know? How much you have..

Jay Ruane  16:53

I have, a perfect example of this is that, you know, we had somebody who was working here that was doing a civil rights practice, who left a year into a five year Lexus contract, and they had signed for every civil rights you know, database you could get, which was costing us, like, in addition to what we were paying, like, an additional $3,500 a year for access to all of them. 

Seth Price  17:18

Like, it’s just that.

Jay Ruane  17:19

I know. And then, and so I said, Hey, what’s the deal? We don’t need this stuff anymore. They’re like, Well, you got it for three more years, buddy. And so I had to go back and forth. And we, even though we had to eat, like, 18 months of it, we eventually got out and changed our plan and got and we’re able to save money. But, you know, that’s something that wasn’t even on my idea that they had signed for that.

Seth Price  17:41

So funny, you say that. So as we started to expand, I’ll wrap up with this, and we’ll come back next week. But the you know, when we I started with my leases, as I started to expand and put somebody in a satellite office, the lease would always say it’s x period of time, or if this person leaves the firm. 

Jay Ruane  18:00

I love that. 

Seth Price 18:00

And when you do like, again, this is going back to the granular knowing that it’s only as good if you have a satellite office and you’re opening it because there’s an attorney there putting that in there, can just like this thing if you had had something in there saying, Hey, I’m signing this, this this piece. And it’s the problem is, it’s almost like asking somebody for a prenup. When you bring that up, you’re sort of raising the fact he might not be with you at the same time. It made that’s where, if you were involved, you’d be like, hey, I need an out if this practice doesn’t continue. 

Jay Ruane  18:31

I mean, you really need to pay attention to this stuff. 

Seth Price  18:33

No no absolutely. The problem is, when you go to look at your top 20% expenses, you know, I was frustrated in that a lot of those are locked, and then I can’t do much about them.

Jay Ruane  18:44

So Seth, I’ve got something else I want to talk about. Maybe we could save it for next week, but we I want to talk about optimism and pessimism in a law firm and the people that are there, because it’s something that’s been at the back of my mind. So maybe we could end today and come back next week. We can talk a little bit about optimism and pessimism, because I think it’s something that requires a sort of a deeper conversation. And we’re just, we’re not, we don’t have enough time today to get to it. Sounds good.

Seth Price  19:08

Sounds great, Jay.

Jay Ruane  19:08

Awesome. Thank you. All right, folks, that’s gonna do it for us this week on the Law Firm Blueprint. Of course, you can take us on the go anywhere you want to go by subscribing to the Law Firm Blueprint podcast, be sure to give us a five star review on your podcast player of choice, and of course, you can get us live every week, 3 pm Eastern, 12 pm Pacific, live on LinkedIn and live in our Facebook group, the law firm blueprint. That’s gonna do for me. I’m Jay Ruane. He is Seth Price. We have the Law Firm Blueprint. Bye for now.