S4 E2: Learn How To Scale Your Firm On Today`s Market

Join Seth as he dives deep with Mike Morse about scaling a firm in today’s market

What's in this episode?

  • Welcome to the Law Firm Blueprint.
  • The decision to start a law firm like a business.
  • Every single lawyer we meet is doing too much.
  • When should you bring on a CFO?
  • Is there some sort of weird correlation between spending money for help and the likelihood that you’ll follow through with the success?

Transcript

Jay Ruane

Hey everybody, it's Jay here from the Law Firm Blueprint. And I'm so glad to be with you today. And what I want to do is do something a little different this week in the law firm blueprint, and that is provide you with an interview that says stay offline. With Mike Morse. Mike is a phenomenal, very scaled, personal injury lawyer out of Michigan. And Seth was able to sit down with him and have a one on one conversation talking all about growing the firm, not talking about using and looking at your firm as a business. And so we thought it'd be a great opportunity for us to share this with people in the lLaw Firm Blueprint so that you can get an idea of what it took one person to scale as some of you may have read Mike's book, fireproof, that's about the story of him scaling his firm. And that's what we want to do here at the law firm blueprint, we don't want to just be talking to hands on a podcast with a Facebook group, we want to make sure that we're giving you new and exciting stuff, stuff that you can use every week. So stay tuned, we're going to have the interview with Mike Morris, and then next week, we're going to have a 30. So 30 minute or so presentation, all about onboarding your team members onboarding, your attorneys onboarding your staff, and how really onboarding starts with the job placement ads, The Wanted ad. So we're bringing you some different stuff this week, and then the Law Firm Blueprint. And in the coming weeks, we'll go back to having the one on one with Seth and myself, but we're going to try to mix it up here give you more. So if there's anything that you want to see here in a Law Firm Blueprint, please let us know. But for now, enjoy this interview with Seth and Mike Morse.

Seth Price

Welcome, everyone. We are thrilled to have Mike Morris here from the mike Moore's Law Firm and fireproof. Welcome.

Mike Morris

Thanks for having me, Seth.

Seth Price

So Mike, in addition to running a awesome regional law firm, you have created a coaching and development program fireproof the best selling book and now a coaching program leveraging EOS and and to book traction into your book fireproof. You know, the you know, watching from afar, what you've created, and now personally working with your with your guru, John Knox Hazel, to talk with my own firm price. Benowitz has been just an awesome experience. But take us back. I mean, what you created this juggernaut didn't happen overnight. What are some of the sort of seminal moments or decisions you made along the way that put you in the position to create the firm you have today?

Mike Morris

It's a very good question. Take me to that. That's a really good question. I don't know if I've ever been asked that. You know, the decision for me was, you know, I had mentors and I was smart enough to eventually hire a coach, because I heard these business ideas and something in the back of my brain said, You're never going to get bigger than 30 people. If you don't treat this law firm like a business. I remember hearing your law firm as a business. I said, No, it's not. It's a law firm. Like I really didn't get it set. I really didn't get it. And then one day, I got it. And I said, give me as much business knowledge. And then I started implementing little things. I'm like, holy crap, this stuff really works. So it was it was a little bit gradual. You know, I had somebody introduced, you know, I, my father in law was my first mentor, very, very smart businessman, not a lawyer. And I remember having lunch with him 20 years ago. And he'd say, he'd say, simple question says he'd say, how many signups? Did you have this week? Last week? I didn't know. Well, how much money did you bring in last week? I don't know how much he could have bring in this year. And he would ask me questions that I knew in my heart, I shouldn't know. But I didn't know. And that was I was embarrassed. And so that was like my first entree that there's more to it than this. And then I got a business coach Gina Whitman, I'm still a genomic been 15 years later, I believe in coaching. And you know, now that I have been with John for 14 years, it's been incredible. He's dialed me in, like he's dialing you in. He's introducing me to new concepts with data and leadership and management every day. And it's just been a whirlwind. But once I made that decision that you asked about, my firm went from 30 people to 150-60 people 70 million and settlements to 160 million within five or six short years. And I mean, that might sound like a long time to some short, but it was it to me it was like a rocket

Seth Price

Five or six years you made that jump.

Mike Morris

Yes. Because of the principles in the book, the principles and traction, the principles that you know, not none of this stuff and fireproof is new. It's my spin on traction for Lawyers. It's my personal story and John's story. And yes, that, for me, it was just a rock it was it was rocket fuel, as Gina would say.

Seth Price

Right. And some of it is, you know, and I think John will tell you that it's, it's a plan. Is it the best plan? Worst plan? Don't know, but you had a plan, you stuck with it. And it and it did. It's it's pretty good plan. But one of the things when you're in the trenches, you know, Law School professor talking about seeing the forest through the trees, that sometimes it's really tough. There's so many things, you're playing whack a mole, especially if you have trial responsibilities. You have HR responsibilities, there's oversight of the accounting, and all these different components coming together. You know, where do Where does somebody start? Like, what's a good starting point? When you're like, Okay, I'm running a law firm, I'm not running a business. I mean, it is a business. But you're, you're running it and you have those embarrassing moments where you don't know off the top of your head number of signups or revenue per week or month. What are some of the first few steps that somebody should take?

Mike Morris

Chapter one of our fireproof book is Know thyself. So when I first met Gino, I was doing everything. And I was just a jack of all trades, but I was doing nothing great. I was just doing everything from finding the space to hiring to signing up the clients to doing every deposition, every trial, giving the clients the checks on and on and on. And what I learned was that you can't run a good law firm and do everything. So you're either the visionary slash CEO slash entrepreneur, or you're the manager - COO - integrator, who likes the nitty gritty, who likes reading those long contracts and emails, who likes making sure the trains are on time, and that everybody's doing what they need to do. I'm more. I'm obviously a visionary. I'm the CEO, I had to figure out what that meant. Never heard those terms before, especially using a law firm setting. I never heard that term visionary until Geno introduced me to it. And then once he basically tested it on me and to see if I really I was his first law firm he ever worked with, to see if I truly was a visionary. He said, Okay, these are the five or six or seven things you should be working on. And that's it. And I had I offloaded 100% of the other stuff now, not overnight. But within the first day of meeting Gino, I offloaded 50% of my work. And then my brain was able to free up, I had a team in place that was able to take some of my ideas and implement them. So if you said to me, Michael, first step is knowing yourself, and figuring out what you should be doing in your law firm. And I'm telling you right now, for any entrepreneurial lawyers watching this, listen to this, it's not everything, you have to pick your things, and you have to delegate the rest. And that may sound simple, that may sound hard, it doesn't matter. We've now coached over 50 law firms. And I'll tell you that every single lawyer we originally meet is doing too much. I have not met a lawyer who's where I'm at who's just working in their sweet spot. I've not met that person out of the gate. But once they get there, what I'm seeing is scale. What I'm seeing they're scaling, I'm seeing more money, I'm seeing more happiness, I'm seeing more money, more growth. So it is it's to answer your question, that's step one.

Seth Price

So of that, when you're deciding you have X number of things on your plate, what determines what comes off as a what you like, what you're good at what you're not good at? Like? How do you determine and the order of removal.

Mike Morris

So we have a we have a system that we take people through, we make them right out what they do in a general week. And to make it short and simple for your listeners. Ideally, you want to be doing only things that you love to do, and you're great at. And I've had lots of lawyers say to me easier said than done. I thought it was easier said than done. And it took me years to get there. But I'm there. I've been there for the last 5, 6, 7 years. And I'll tell you that it's really special. It really is a game changer in my life, my life. I mean, imagine I don't take meetings, I don't take lunches. I don't take appointments. I don't take a project analysts. I love to do it. I love the project. I love the people I'm working at and I'm great at it. So I say no a lot more. I'll say you know if I if somebody asks even like for a podcast, if I don't like the podcast if I don't like the host I'm honored that you're here. I say no, thank you. I don't say it like a jerk. But I'm literally doing things that I love to do an ember right at, and that's my goal is to teach every lawyer in this country in this world who will, who will listen, is that that truly is the way. And and the craziest part Seth is when you're working in your sweet spot, not only do you have more freedom, but you're gonna make more money, you're gonna be happier, you're gonna live longer, I'm sure. And more things come to you, you're more things are attracted to you, because you're just walking around happy with less stress and less tension. And I truly I live it. So I know it's possible. You do not need to be a workaholic, you do not need to do things you don't want to do. And obviously, I'm not talking to a guy or girl gal who's been doing this for a year or two, right? As a lawyer, I have young lawyers that come to me and say, I want to be like you. For 20 plus years, I busted my butt and I did a lot. So but you know, I wish I didn't wait 20 years, I wish three, four or five years I was introduced to these concepts I'd be I would have been much further along than I am.

Seth Price

Okay, but something that we've seen I co-host a podcast with Jay Ruane on law firm growth, which we get people and they're much, much smaller trying to build and somebody J gets a lot is you see somebody who's not being particularly successful for four or 567 years, their net is nominal is you know, when you talk about that are only certain people cut out to be the visionary there other people that should get six, seven figures for working with in somebody else's system. What's your thought on that?

Mike Morris

So you could absolutely go out there and find a CEO or a visionary to run your law firm. I've seen people do it. It's it's rare, because usually it's the owner, it's you or me.

Seth Price

And I wasn't talking that but just the idea that you shouldn't be in that role. Are there people that's defined you did this for 20 years? Got all these different skill sets? And then put it together? You loose? You did it earlier? But like, do you are certain people destined for certain people not? Or is everybody eligible for it?

Mike Morris

I don't think everybody is eligible for it. Truly, I've never been asked that question. But I know that Gino and one of his books, I don't know if it's an entrepreneurial leap, but he's got tests. You could take a visionary test to see if you're a visionary, John knock Hazel is not a visionary, he would fail at that test. I would fail at the COO integrator test. So and I think Gino the statistic is like 1%, one and a half percent are true visionaries, true entrepreneurs. And so if you're not somebody who's coming up with 10 new ideas a day, if you're not somebody who can really convince their clients or big relationships to do what they want to who holds those big relationships, who loves to learn and read and who's never satisfied, no matter how much money they earn, or how much success they have. Those are just a few of the examples of a true visionary that fit me like a glove, I believe they fit you pretty well, too. And you're a visionary. And and so if somebody if somebody thinks they're visionary, but those things don't apply to them, then they're not a visionary. They shouldn't pretend to be a visionary. And they should go and and run the law firm, manage the law firm, and find somebody in the firm, hopefully, who's got those great ideas who could position that firm for greatness, who can go out there and bring in the new business? Who could figure out how to make it all work. But it's not every not every 98 out of 100. Lawyers can't be the visionary aren't true visionaries. Some of them try. And yeah, can a coach can a good coach try to bring them up yet. But if it's not natural, I think that that person is going to get to get stuck.

Seth Price

So one of the things that I see a lot is people and I see that within my own within my own world and outside my own world, people have trouble giving up control of different areas you're talking about, you gave up, you know, a lot of stuff came off your plate. And enter Finkelstein, a friend of the show friend of mine, a mentor of mine, he was saying that you have to sort of get used to the comfortable with the idea of mediocrity. What is your feeling on that? I mean, is there you know, you could do things better than at least to start with the people you dish stuff off to maybe over time, they're better, but what's your thought on that?

Mike Morris

I'm a big fan of Andrew Finkelstein, so I'm never going to go against him. I don't look at it as mediocrity. Of course. I did this in one of my last speeches. I said how many people in this room think that nobody in your firm could do it anywhere near as good as you something and everybody's hand went up, right? Mine were trials negotiating with adjusters talking to clients. And I had to come to realization that there are people better than me at certain things. So you have to have some humbleness, right. You got to check your ego a little bit at the door. And I have some I have some very good stories about people who I've hired one woman who's still with me 19 years later, who's better than me on the phone, she's more empathetic, she's more caring, she's more loving, she's more patient. And all she does every day is deal with my clients issues and problems. I didn't want to do it anymore. She's been with me 19 years. So that's one example. She's better than me, I have better lawyer, I'm better. I will say I have better lawyers at my firm who can do certain things, maybe they write better, maybe they do a better deposition. Maybe they even maybe they even try a case as good as me or as well as I used to try cases. But I'm not afraid. If you have a feeling that nobody's gonna do it as good as you. I think that that you're gonna, I think you're gonna have a harder time delegating.

Seth Price

Of course. But let's take that off the table for a second. There's the let's say you're not afraid of somebody who better than you, but just being and there's a question right now you have needs and resources. There are points when you're growing, when you're growing your firm, where you have an org chart, and you have a bunch of seats that are empty, that you're filling, or somebody else is filling you slowly over time, hopefully fill that out. But what are the thoughts when there are less means and you don't have those resources to bring them in? How do you balance that you want the stuff off your plate at the same time, prevent doing better than you but doing it at a level that you're willing to live with? Until you can rise?

Mike Morris

That is the question. When should I hire that HR person? When should I hire that CEO? I have stories for all of these things, Seth, like when I hired John, okay, um, let's just go through that story. I've never I don't know if I've ever told this story. You know, I was resisting hiring a six figure plus person to come in and do what I was doing. I mean, it was a lot of money. At the time, I had about 2728 employees, I didn't really understand it. I'm a law firm, I'm gonna bring in a non lawyer to run it. I didn't understand it. It was expensive. I was managing but not really managing. And then we had a fire. And my building basically burned down. And Gina looked to me and says, okay, so you're going to do everything you're doing and rebuild your building. No. So I went out and found John pretty easily and quickly. It was a godsend, it was the greatest move I ever made. Hopefully, I wish I would have made it earlier. I wish I would have hired a coach earlier. The one reason I talk so much, and I speak so much. And I come on podcasts such as yours as I want to spread this word is like don't wait, you know, if you can afford if you could bring on somebody. And yeah, you might make less money for a little bit. But once you free up yourself, to explore all those great things that you're bottled up in your brain, it's going to skyrocket. But if you're not willing to do that, if you're not willing to let go of things, if you're not willing to hire that person, if you're not willing to make less money to be able to delegate, then you're never growing, you're gonna stay exactly where you are. And I truly believe had I not hired John, I would be at 28 people right now, I'd be making a nice living. But because John came in to free me up, you know, the org chart me, John, everybody else. Like, like, like maybe like this. And so I can't I can't stress enough, you know, that decision when to bring that next person on, whether it be a managing lawyer, whether it be personnel, manager secretaries and paralegals, whether it be an account as a CFO, massive decisions, don't take them lightly. But I'm telling you when you're able to offload 20%, 30%, 40% of your stuff to a very competent person. Now, this is important to the competent person. Going back to what Andrew Finkelstein said, lives, your core values has been tested and as the right person gets it, Watson has the brain capacity to do it. I'm not looking for mediocrity. In fact, I don't hire mediocre players and if I haven't mediocre player they're not they're very long. So I if I if you do all the things that you've read in traction, that you've read my book, fireproof, you're not dealing with mediocrity, you're dealing with somebody hopefully better than you.

Seth Price

So one of the things that's scary right now History is written by the Victor and you've had a great run and that is awesome. You hired a guy you say it was too, you know, you wish was earlier, but who knows, you know, you you came and it worked. What are some of the mistakes you see people making? If you have examples, or you've seen them, where they've either brought things in spent money on resources, can you hire or bring on coaching too soon and burn through valuable capital? Or is it generally the opposite that the faster that you go and get a CEO or director of finance, what are the things are there are there times where people are ahead of the curve from I know that many people lawyers generally are way late, the people picking up your book are like man, I should have figured out a slide read a long time ago. But looking at the other end, you see people making the mistake the other way over.

Mike Morris

I have a, I have a friend. And she's trying to build her firm, fast and furious and really has never tried a case and never done depositions and whatever. But she's a really smart business mind. And she's bringing on all these people. And she's going to be ahead of the curve, she's going to beat me by 10 or 12 or 14 years. She's literally building it before the clients come. I mean, she's got a lot of clients, but she's doing a really good job. And I'm learning and watching. And I don't have an answer yet. But she's actually bringing in the HR and the CFO and the CEO, before she actually needed it. And so she hasn't caught up yet, but I'm watching this unfold. I don't think first of all, you can't bring on a coach too early ever, because there are coaches available in every price range. And so I think that that's a must, is getting some coaching, getting some mentorship could be free. I met your people for free, sometimes. And I think that works. And then, you know, when ideally, look, ideally, you can afford that new hire, and sometimes it's a stretch, and sometimes you're gonna eat less steak, and you're gonna have to bring on that person. But I think that for us, visionary Seth, when you free up your energy, you know, Gino calls it hitting the ceiling, right? You and I have so many ideas, we're hitting the ceiling, we can't do it. But then once you remove the ceiling, the sky's the limit. And I've seen people flourish, when lot when the bad stuff is taken off their plates. I've seen people flourish. So it's an impossible question to give any extreme accuracy about when to bring on that person like your original question was, but it's super important to do to try to get it at the right time. Have a mentor or coach to help you think is it the right time? Should I bring somebody on, you know, should be doesn't hurt to interview doesn't hurt to put out feelers, maybe the person will. I've had when I first started hiring good lawyers, I made them take pay cut, pay cuts coming to me. And now they're making seven plus figures. And that was the best better their lives. They bet on me. They bet on my firm, they bet on my vision. So there's a million scenarios where you don't have to break the bank to delegate.

Seth Price

You know, something you said there, which I'm curious, I've done some thinking on this. I mean, there's nothing more valuable than mentors. And that's awesome. And a lot have gotten me to where I am. But and I am sort of late to the game in the coaching world. And now, sort of, literally today have somebody over BluShark spending the day with with our own management team. And it's similar things thanks to you, at Price Benowitz, is there some sort of weird correlation between spending money for it for that help? And the likelihood that you're going to follow through with the success and it's weird, maybe self serving questions you because you have a program, but I always like I'm a frugal guy. And I figured, hey, I have these great mentors, I should be able to go and get these pieces and put it together. But I have found that there is something about the pain of spending some money on something that you look at it differently. You take the time you block the time differently. And you you take the advice differently than when it's a casual mentor, you may have coffee, or zoom with?

Mike Morris

Gino Wickman told us on day one, that my average consulting contract is about a year and a half to two years. We're we are now going on our 15th year with him. And it's expensive. It's I don't know, I think it was I think it's

Seth Price

It's the talking you are doing the doing a keynote.

Mike Morris

It's a daily rate. He doesn't like doing keynotes. But I'll just say but he charges a lot for his keynote. The point is, Seth, I can't stress enough that the reason I have them is to hold us accountable. We would be a lot less. We took a year off. I think seven eight years ago. We tried it on our own because John Locke Hazel runs these meetings for other firms all over the country and does a great job. But there was something nice about having an independent arbiter in the room to hold us accountable when we're when we're deep in the muck and we're stuck and he calls you know, he calls his bullshit alert. Tangent alert is what he actually calls it when we're just off the rails and he brings us back home it's worth the price for me to pay.

Seth Price

No no I look I can speak to it. I tried myself I bought the software in the book and had a guy in my office attempted and granted the guy didn't work out at the firm period. but it is exponentially different when it's somebody outside poking in, rather than just trying to do it on the on the cheap.

Mike Morris

When we have a coaching client, and they're paying us a lot of money, and we come in every Tuesday at two o'clock to say, Okay, let's go through the your to dues let's go through what you did this week. It's they better have done it because it's a colossal waste of money if they didn't, if I was the owner and my team wasn't doing these things and didn't get their stuff done, I'd be pissed. But if you're saying no to you, or me or somebody else at the firm, then it's a little bit wishy washy. So look coat one reason you have coaches is to hold you accountable. That's it. I mean, that's, that's and you know, we did you know, we part of our coaching program, you know, we do it, we can do it quarterly, we can do it weekly. It depends on the personality of the person in the firm. If you know we were for 13 years, or actually 15 years we do quarterly with Gino, we don't do weekly. Had I done weekly with Gino, I would have been where I'm at 10 years earlier, and I wish he did offer he doesn't offer that. So you know you whoever out there could find weekly coaches quarterly coaches? Hell, you can probably find daily coaches if you got enough money?

Seth Price

Well, let me ask because this is like I get this question in the SEO world like what should I watch out for? What in the in the coaching world because look, there's there's no bar exam, anybody can raise their hand and be a coach. I mean, you you have a as we do on the SEO side, you do on the coaching side, you have a track record of having done something, you've modeled it, you've written a book on it. But what are the red flags? Because they like there are dubious players in every space. What should somebody watch out for in the coaching world?

Mike Morris

So there's a few programs out there not going to name names, but they're not run by lawyers. And they don't have any lawyers working there, really. And they're known for other specialties. And they want to get to the coaching business. And some of them, you know, at lower levels work well. And some don't. So we have a lot of people calling us from other coaching programs. And you know, I would listen, if somebody came to me and said, What should I look for I would I would get, I would get references. I would get references and talk to the law firm that's similar size. I wouldn't sign a contract. So don't forget that when we when John and I agreed to coach it was reluctantly the first guy who called me one of my dear friends now but I never heard of him. His name is John Gomez out of California. John called me and says I need you to coach me. I loved your book. It changed my life. I said, John, I'm not a coach. I'm running a law firm goodbye. He's and he's a very persistent, Kaz. He's like, No, Michael, I'm serious. Your book I've been doing this 20 years, it changed my life. I need your help. That was the first time I ever thought about coaching. And I said, okay, and we I think two years later, he's he's his firm is like this, because we got him out of his furloughing practice to a marketing juggernaut. He was right. Yes. And he wants to interesting now he's the only client who actually, he loves trying cases. And he's one of the best trial lawyers I've ever seen and heard, he's got some of the best results in the country. And most rollers like don't want to do it anymore. He's like, I want you to free me up. So I can try cases so I can help more people. So I can do more good work. And I'm like, okay, and we did, but then most most lawyers want to do what I did. And it's so anyway, because of John, we started offering the coaching. But what I say when I said that I said nobody's ever signing a contract with me. If you don't like what we're giving, we're charging way too much money, that if you're not getting great results every week, fire us. We're used to it. But guess what, many people haven't fired us up people graduate from the program, of course. And we are now starting to offer a quarterly ease and we have a we have a video model now that it's on demand very reasonable price.

Seth Price

And your tell us tell us about that. Because I think for people listening that's going to be more accessible to a lot of people.

Mike Morris

Yeah, it's called fireproof.masterclass.com. That's the website you can go out. It's a I think it's a couple $1,000 a month and it's it's all the tools, but it's video. John and I get on a call once a month and we answer questions. We talk to people, but it's not weekly. It's not every week for 90 minutes, which is what John and other people get. And we don't make you sign a contract. For me for that. I think there's a one year commitment. But if somebody hired us to do a quarterly, Gino taught me at the end of every meeting for 15 years, Seth, he looks at us and says he looks at me and says are you going to keep me on for another quarter? Every year every quarter for 15 years and that's that's the anybody who tries to get you to sign a two year commitment for A monthly expensive coaching program that makes me nervous. And because you don't know in six months if you're gonna like it or not, so you got to check your references. Try not to sign a long contract. We're happy to talk to people. But we're not the only coaching program. The only good thing about us that the only thing, one good thing about us as we've done it.

Seth Price

And and that's significant, you know, that that's we went out when I wanted to start a marketing company, the late Stephen fairly, it was like sitting at a table is like, this is your pitch. I've done it for myself, let me do it for you. And that's essentially what you're saying, I figured out how to do better than you guys.

Mike Morris

And BluShark is great. And if I recommend you guys all the time for that kind of stuff. And it's, it's in it shows and so references are key in that world.

Seth Price

Let me ask you this in our way. I don't want to, you know, really appreciate your time today. You're doing a project with the National Trial Lawyers coming up later in the year and I figured we at least conclude telling people a little bit about what you have planned for that...

Mike Morris

Business of loss. I think it's the first one it's I'm looking at my book now. It's mid November. It's the first time they've done this. The first weekend is the first week. I'm going to find this because I have to it's it's November 13 National trailers business of law we're doing the first day is marketing and advertising. I'm going to be there speaking as well as a lot of great people. Monday is the fireproof day. We're going to have all things fireproof my coaches. Bill Biggs is going to be there.

Seth Price

He just came to both my law firm and digital marketing company for a day and amazing star.

Mike Morris

Rockstar speakers. We're going to play golf the day after this our first year this conference at NPL brought to us and I think they're all They're selling it out at 200 People usually they have 800 people. So I think this is gonna sell a really, really quick. I'm excited about it. You know, you know, I love Phoenix. I love Scottsdale, and it's we're gonna have it at the JW Marriott, which is this fabulous, fabulous West Omni type Hotel. So I hope you come Seth and I know you'll be Oh, definitely we're gonna be there. I know you are. And so lots of lots of great vendors. Lots of great speakers. That's exciting. Lots of exciting seminars coming up that I'm going to try to get at and speak at and have fun at.

Seth Price

Well, that's great. Well, thank you so much. I can't wait to see you in person, but have you back here to continue the conversation?

Mike Morris

Anytime. So thanks for having me.

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