Join Seth and Jay back from vacation and discussing avoid turnover via golden handcuffs, should you have your attorneys sell themselves or not, the battle between throwing money at a problem versus delegating a solution and the true value of a mastermind program and how to analyze which one will work for you.
Hello, hello and welcome to the Law Firm Blueprint. I am one of your host Jay Ruane, CEO from Flex and Ruane's Attorneys, a criminal defense and civil rights for in Connecticut. With me as always my man down there, Seth price, BluShark digital SEO for law firms as well as managing partner of Price Benowitz. Your DC, Maryland, Virginia, South Carolina and Idaho law firm Seth, how's your week going this week?
Pretty good back from vacation, no major fires. Now now just, you know, getting back to the grind and putting, you know, trying to tweak things, try and move it to the next level.
Yeah, that's what that's what it's all about. And you know, and it's interesting. I feel like as as soon as a law firm owner, as soon as you seem to be going, well, things go left or go right. And nothing. It's not something that you can't handle. But the topic came up this week, and I wanted to talk to you about it, because I think it's something that our people in our audience might want to start thinking about. And that is essentially, this idea of golden handcuffs. And it's interesting that we talk about it in terms of a legal entrepreneur, group and show because none of us here got grabbed by those golden handcuffs, right? And we said, no, no, I'm going to do it on my own. But there's a certain segment of the population that aren't necessarily looking to be be entrepreneurs. But they could be job hoppers. Right? You know, they stay in a job for three to five years or seven years. And then they say, let me see what is out there. Because they really are just sort of, you know, get lead people who are lead, not necessarily leaders. And so the way that they bring excitement to their life is to start a new job. And I'm wondering how you have sort of approaches because, you know, upsetting the applecart and losing somebody who knows your systems and know how things work after three or five or seven years, can really do damage to you as an owner. Because at that point, things are sort of humming. And then you have to get back involved and give up the time give up the freedom as an owner, that you have. So have you dealt with this issue before because I'm about to deal with it?
Well, so funny. So it's, when I took a vacation about 6, 7, 8 years ago, managing a private show, we lost our head finance person, and it was like miserable, and on a cruise ship. And um, the 250 Minute calling from a cruise phone before there was really Wi Fi calling. And we're trying to figure out what to do. So the good news about now is it was not the case, when I've talked a lot on the non plaintiff side, I have been, I think rather successful at by sharing the wealth by doing a percentage of gross, I think it works both ways and protecting the firm from deadbeats, as well as incentivizing your rockstars. And that by making sure that, you know, my attitude is, again, historically has been, I may lose somebody, but I don't want it to be from money. Now, if somebody goes to a hedge fund or something like that, I can't change but within take criminal defense for a moment, right? There's a market. And as long as you're at or above the right place, the only time I've lost somebody in the last 15 years was when they got into I think it's happened one and a half times they got handed a practice by somebody else, somebody else about to retire, here's your practice, and it's yours. And you know, you need somebody who doesn't mind running their own practice. And it's a treat and feel where they're really going to do it. I think both instances the original person is probably still there, and they never got what they weren't important. That said, I'm a big believer in making sure and again, it gets tougher when it's administrative, but we all have a few of those positions. And that's why when my CEO fell off a motorcycle couple years back, we were trying to pay at or above and that we lost somebody despite that moment. And I feel that like on the attorney side, it I think it's a little bit trickier on the plaintiff side, but on the non family criminal Trust and Estates, there's a way of making sure that you're keeping up and if you do well, they do well. And while your margin might come down a few points, the stability in our firm, we've had people 8, 9, 11, 12 years that have stayed that would not have stayed for the length of time or forbid around. Had we not been pushing the envelope on pay.
Now let me ask you questions. So when you have when you're doing sort of a split of revenue so that your lawyers are getting a percentage of what business they do, so they can see the dollars and and know that they're comfortable with it. Are they also closing that business? So they have to be a salesperson.
In general. That's, that's that's how much danger there are exceptions to everything. But on the criminal defense side, yes.
Okay. So I got to interrupt you, what if there's shitty salespeople
They don't, then they can't have a job.
But how do you find that out until your couple of numbers...
We recruit for it and, and frankly, I think it is less the sale, which is a piece of it. And more like what I have found, and by selling through stuff, it's out for us to one two combination, because we have a pre sale being done by our intake department. And the main sale is being done by the attorney. Look, there are guys who have scaled practices where there's one lawyer, there's not nothing about the non attorney sales model. But I'm talking about like ones where there's one maniacal lawyer that sits there signs, everything was amazing. And then dishes stuff off and they run around.
That's what we have, right? That's my mom.
And it can work if your people are great, great. But very often, my guess is as great as your firm is, the biggest issue comes in that handoff, where somebody else shows up, and it's not the person who signed them up, I take a little bit of a hit again, my model is not for everybody. But the more you can do to assuage that, whether it be that original voice is always there, if they need something, whether it be a touch point from you, whatever it is, but the guys were, there's an amazed that what I have seen that so your model, and amazing person doing it, and then whoever they could possibly find to put up with them, as those attorneys running around that state because they pay the least they're not trying to, you know, you want to have a golden handcuffs. These are guys that are the opposite, let me pay the least amount of money possible to make the most those are guys that have turnover. And if anything, it's that the delta, but the differentiation between the amazing sale, and the schmuck that shows up in court, that can be really problematic, at least here, the schmuck they see is the schmuck they're going to get, again, it's not as scalable as the people that do it another way, I'm always jealous of the non attorney salesperson, because they're, they're sitting there, they're professional, they close, we've done pretty well. And I have multiple lawyers running seven figures, citing it doing it. Because the when you get rockstars it works well when you don't their problems.
Right. And I you know, I'm just wondering like, how do you determine what golden handcuffs would be? If you have somebody who you're like, I can really sort of branch out and do the stuff that I want to do as a law firm owner? Do you know, do you survey the local community and see what other people are getting? And then say, I'm tacking on 10 or 15%? You know.
I have not been as scientific about it. But what I've done is two things. One thing that we've done since the beginning, is if somebody brings in work and does it themselves on the non contingency side, they're getting 50 cents on the dollar. Right?
It makes perfect sense, right?
So if you ran your own practice with limited overhead, what's your margin gonna be 40%? Right. So here, and once you and if you're not good at it, if you're a practitioner who's not listening to this show is like, it's not easy, it would not be much just get to the point where you're basically, you know, in order to get margins like that, you wouldn't be getting in your own shot. Right, so that people and this allows them to build a book of business. So theoretically, one of the risk factors, the way I do it is people would like build up, I don't need you anymore. Right. But I think it's been like a drug where they get the best of both worlds, they get a margin for their own work, and then they get a margin for the work that they do that we bring them.
Well, let me ask you this, though, about about having these people that are selling themselves, do you ever run into problems where they get a little comfortable and are like, You know what, I don't need to sell that hard for this person. And so you've spent money on a lead to come in, and they've got, you know, a 10 or a 50 or $25,000 case, but you know what, they're fat and happy. And so they say, I'm not gonna get on the phone at you know, four o'clock.
You know, so funny it's all in the DNA because the lawyers we have the partners that we have again it these are these are partners of ours, they make good money, they bring in good money they are they they they run this and it just the economic model the way we do it, but they they crush it. And there's those.
I can see I can see some people who are like, no, no, no, I'll take on more work and I'm only gonna get 2500 bucks out of this. I'd rather leave early and hit the bar and have a couple of drinks with my friends.
So we had a guy who was that guy and drove deep where he's, you know, you're almost like a, you know, a teacher's union mentality when hated, but like, you know, the idea of you know, humans clocking in and clocking out, he had a draw, do just enough to get it it was it was really mediocre, the guy we brought in to the same sea has more than tripled, I don't want to say quadruple, but some of the triple and quadruple what the production of this guy was. So it's all about the person. And I'm well aware of it, and I see it. So we're What do you see, what I would say is if somebody is crappy, and they are pulling that game, and you see because our intake tracks, which leads don't get followed up with quickly, which which ones, you know, our past, so to speak, you know, that's areas where I pulled paid search back, because paid search really only has limited margin. And so you're constantly figuring it out. But when you get people who are doing right, you hold on for dear life. And look, one of the other pieces that you know, we talked about golden handcuffs that are money, but we're not dicks. We're not sexually harassing people, something we'll talk about a little bit, we run a nice firm with good people that do things, right. If somebody if if a client is problematic, even though it hurts us, meaning fight, give the money back, like we back our people every which way. And like, Is it perfect? No. But like we have a pretty good loyal following of our partners who love what they're doing. And it gives what we're talking about, which is the best of both worlds of, you know, the economics of running a practice while at the same time, not the headaches.
Okay, awesome. That's, that's good. And I wanted to talk a little bit about this, because I think it's something that people have to consider. Because if you do have somebody and you can, and the immediate thought is, if I can pay somebody over market, that is profit that I should be able to take as the owner and bring it home. And so I'm taking money out of my own pocket, to be able to give somebody more money than the market should there for that person. And that right there, you know, it, it, it can really hurt, you know, because you're thinking shit, I should be able to pay you market, because that's what the market.
But to me, I don't know. So that makes it make your point, I would like to believe I know that the market keeps moving. So it's not, I would like to, I would like to believe that for the people that perform, you're paying above market, you should never be at market because market keeps moving. Like I told you, I always track the number of people we lose that we don't want to lose in the lawyer side. Very few I gave you an example before somebody was handed a practice. But rarely, rarely has that happened generally. It's you know, again, it's happened a handful of times. But I'll take take the the other side of this, where we saw during COVID, that the markets went north. And when you're paying for in quote at market, like where it's not like on the better side of market, the moment there's a bump bump, I think it's just dangerous territory that you want to make sure that the people you want. If everybody in the team made five or 10k more than quote unquote, market on the administrative side, right? It adds up, it goes towards its points on the bottom line. But look at the cost of turnover we're going to have we're going to have one of the moguls on a few weeks talking about something to do with Chris, where they they try to charge what a cost of losing a person is. So if there's a problematic employee, what are their strengths? Why is it and then like what the cost of turnover, and you're trying to put numbers on these things. So you can figure out, when do you make a move with that mediocre player, which we held on for years more than we should have. But once we made the move, we got 4x Three XR return, you know, so it's constantly I think, looking at that, and I think it's easy to say spend money, especially when you start out. But I think that one of the things and you and I've talked about this over the years, is identifying a few of those people that aren't going to allow you if you leave for the beach, and the beach and you and you can enjoy yourself that's worth a lot, who are the few people that allow you to stabilize that, you know, and making sure that slightly even more so that you're not on the bubble, but on the right side of the bubble.
I mean, think about it, if you're willing to give up it's like saying all in you know, for a lot of our audience, you give up 25,000 or $50,000 a year, but you guarantee yourself, you know, three vacations a year where you're not freaking out, that has value in and of itself just for your ability to maintain...
And the risk factor because 1000 decisions will be made when you're not in the office. Right. And, you know, I just spoke somebody today, one of one of the issues he's dealing with four or five years later are issues that took place when he was out of the office. So like if you if you have the right team on the bus, to quote Collins, then you know, we're
Well, let's talk about that. Let's pin it a little to business owners decisions that we have business owner decisions we have to make as as lawyers and as legal entrepreneurs, as firm owners, we were talking last week, show a little bit about your HR person and how they came to you and said, Hey, look, you know, in some states, we're required to do certain types of training, or at least make people aware of policies and procedures and that type of thing. And here's the solution, and it's gonna, it's gonna cost a couple $1,000. But it's one thing to sort of take a major issue that could creep up and take it off your plate because you have a plug and play solution.
First of all, nothing's plug and play. Second, I just want to throw it to the audience. HR is something I got many years later, I got 40 lawyers and 100 employees. So have an HR person is not something we are recommending right out of the gate for...
An HR person.
Right? Exactly. And like, you know, you people who have these different skills, you need recruiters, you need different things. I'm a big believer in recruiters as soon as you can afford one if you want to grow. But so, you know, look, somebody can we have an HR person who's post COVID, she seems solid, she comes into the job. He says, Hey, there's a suite of services, you can buy a SaaS based software, everyone can log in, it will track what they're doing. And it's like X 1000s of dollars. Right? Because I'm sort of stuck between two worlds money solves that problem, sign the check. It's not solving a problem. It's inoculation if you get sued for sexual harassment. Remember, one thing is make sure you and your partners don't do stupid stuff. Even so this is an additional inoculation. You shouldn't have it right. So what do I do I pick up the phone to Dan Schwartz, he already has a paid solution for states that require a two hour course like I think Connecticut, California, a few others require it. And we're going to work on bringing that to this to the blueprint. Over the next few weeks. What I've asked them to do is for people like us, right, where I don't want to just keep throwing money at it, right? I'm paying an HR person, I don't want to pay the HR person to bring paid solutions. I'm like, Okay, we have a relationship. It really is sexual harassment. It's not a suite of them. It always sounds Oh, wow, there are 100 videos, they can watch 1000 thing? Are they great? I always look at it. Like, Will anybody ever watch it? I wish I could pay by the minute. It's sort of like I would say to you, if I'm doing a happy hour, I'm trying to bring prospects in. And I always say like, god forbid we spend $1,500. On drinks, I'd love it. We should be so lucky. It's not standing at the bar with a $2 barbell. Right. So I wish that people would take advantage of CLAS and things I have online. First thing is hey, is at the first question I push back on is we have ADP for better for worse, they've been solid for us. I know they're not loved by everybody. But you know, they have a suite of services that are included, or a small add in add on first. Second, can we get our buddy Dan to put something together so that we have something which checks the box? Right? Number one reason that we didn't get away sexual harassment? Don't such harass people. Second is let's make sure people know what it is. There's not the gray stuff. Right? That's, that's super important. So we'll do something. But the question is, are we gonna throw money at it? You know, are we gonna throw money at it? Or are we just going to, you know, is this something we really need, whereas, like, it's easy to spend money, I get this all the time, we've talked about this over the years, new software, particularly Salesforce over years of Salesforce, but there's a software and as you get into the higher level software's, there are things that if you add on, for instance, DocuSign, it's $50 a month, but if you wanted to integrate with Salesforce, for example, it's box, and then you have six different companies, you can choose it's a it's a license, very expensive to do it well, elegantly. So all of a sudden, they're like, but this would save us a person's labor, or half a person. And each of these things, it's like, I wouldn't be retired if I saved all the money from all the different things that I was supposed to save money. And again, I don't even penny wise, we now use an integrated solution for Salesforce and document signing. But we used a different not DocuSign version that was like $15,000, we used a perfectly good one that was five or 6000 a year, but it's still not nothing. And so you're constantly evaluating. Is there a way could I be really cheap and just get the $50 version? Well, no, we outgrew that we really needed something more, you know, is a $500 a month subscription. $4 a month sounds like nothing that adds up. But at $4 a month, it really does make our team incredibly efficient. And we end up paying the piper for.
So this it's interesting that you bring this up because last week I had some time in my criminal mastermind, I had actually Joey Vitaliy and who you've known for years, as well as I have and he had a really interesting slider part of his presentation. And it was delegate your solutions don't outsource your problems. And I think that's one of the things here is that your you can just throw money at a problem but that's not necessarily going to solve it. It's going to it's going to it's going to put a lot of band aids on it. Whereas you I like your approach of going and say hey, do we have our payroll provider? Have they given us something? Investigate the options that are out there for us here in Connecticut are actually our state put together a two hour video that you can watch for free So as I just say to my people, hey, that's part of your onboarding, watch this video, take this quiz, and then we're covered didn't cost me anything. So there are resources out there.
Absolutely. So it's a question of build versus buy. And, you know, look, I mean, we joke back and forth, we both been on the wrong side of it the right side.
I bought so many things that I thought were gonna, you know, magic wands, and there is no magic wand.
Right? So like a 15 five, I paid the money for the elegant software, you probably get much of what you need through an email you get.
I get 90% of the way they're using great Google Form and Boomerang for Gmail.
Right. And for me, when I tried using a Google form with thing, I didn't get the same response I did when it was cool and elegant through their system.
Right. And that's what it comes down to. So stick it in my mastermind. You know, we're really growing the criminal mastermind. But I want to talk to you a little bit about masterminds this week, because coming up in about five weeks, we've got John Fisher's mastermind, and, you know, the mastermind concept when it's applied to law firms, is something that I think, really is a hidden diamond. It's something that, you know, you go to these masterminds and you see 10 or 15, Morrow boys got one coming up to I think, when you see the mastermind, group three product, yeah. And unfortunately, I'm speaking to the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Association, that day, so I look to see if I can get there and make it back. And it just there's no flights to make it. Ironically, his last one was it was in Texas, was it? Yeah, was it? Yeah, it was where I'm going to be. So it's just it's like, I can't catch a break with that. But, you know, the mastermind concept, you know, based on Napoleon Hill's book about, you know, bringing together people for to work on problems. I think it's something that a lot of lawyers should be looking for years ago, I said to, I said to a bunch of my friends, both in law and outside of law, that I wanted to create sort of a board of directors of, you know, people that I could bounce ideas off of. And that's really what a mastermind does. And I know, it's the mastermind for fishers gonna be in DC, and talk a little bit about the DC because I kind of went to one in DC with John's group, but I haven't been to all of them.
Right. So like, John, John does a really nice job. But the idea of first things gets you out of the office for any of these, right? Second is, you know, I love it. I'm a junkie that I go to somewhere on the stupidest guy in the room, and I go to somewhere I'm, you know, way years ahead of other people and starting their business, not that I don't learn from everybody. But it's a really great experience, I see it as they become more in fashion, Fisher was way ahead of his time when he started.
Seven years now, it's
Charged a very reasonable amount for it, Mario's in the same, same general we there are ones in the pie space that are very expensive, they take part in and there are ones where people just put it together themselves. I love them. Because of a couple of reasons. There are two different sort of general ways that I see people using them the historical way, or the traditional way, if there's such a way to would be that here's my issue. And then people go around with the Gestalt method where they don't say what they would do, but from their experience, how could they help? Why Eo Eo uses that methodology? I find that that can be helpful, but it breaks down a lot. It's, it's very hard to do well, and that with a group as you get to know them, and that I've seen other masterminds recently, which are not as pure and how they're set up. But I'm really interested in that they do a presentation of what's working well, which in one sense, look, these masterminds always crowdsource Sue, especially the more junior ones around marketing to around intake. Throughout operation, there was so many major headaches. So we have stuff we'll talk about on the show. It's why we love the show so much. But you know, so you have to decide do you want one where you're presenting a problem? Or do you want one where it's a bunch of people that you really love and respect are each going to bring something they're doing well to the table to try to help help elevate everybody. But there's one issue which is a lot of people, myself and others do many masterminds. And while there's confidentiality and people stress that once you learn something, it's part of your DNA. Now, you're not going to talk about something proprietary, personal firm information if it's disclosed there. But it is an issue if that's something that you don't like, I know people that never touch a master my life, you know what I don't want to, I want my stuff. I know what I'm doing with competitive market. I don't want to versus for me, it's never about the, you know, I find rarely is there a nugget that is so secret and special that it's going to make you money. It's all about execution. And so to me, I've taken the rising tides approach that I hope other people do well, but I would, you know, be very clear that it's, you know, assume that what you're talking Not that it's gonna be say, Hey, Jay just said that. But once J imparts on me that he believes in golden handcuffs that may be compounded by business DNA, right. So that's always an issue with these things. I think some of the early masterminds, where a paid leader ran multiple versions of it at issues was that it was confidential until that paid leader went to the next mastermind, and then wanted to fill the room with seats and then use the teachings of somebody else there. And that's so I went with the negative I shouldn't have, but the positive shoot, right gets you out of the office thinking about your project, seeing that you're not alone, having other people very often I see. And especially in Fishers mastermind, one of three things happens. There's a simple answer, oh, my god, slice the bread this way, you'll make money. Sometimes it's like, Hey, this is not so simple. You got it, you know, this is something we spent a lifetime working on, and then are the ones where people can give you their opinion on, you know, do you know where there's no magic answer, but you're gonna have to decide for yourself that you use your non attorney salesperson using attorney and stuff, but you'd have everybody close to the cells are different ways of doing things.
Yeah, you know, it's really interesting to me, one of the, but I think one of the challenges are, is the different masterminds. So like, you'll get some masterminds that are really focused on one particular area of law, you know, so you'll get a pi one, or you'll get like ours to criminal one. And then you have this one where everybody is in a different area of law. And there's almost like they're speaking different languages, because the intake process and four pi is entirely different than the intake process for criminal, which has got artificial time limits and sort of a pressing need. But you need to be paid, versus the intake process for trust in the States, which has made maybe a longer lead time. And, and, and one of the challenges I've run into is not everybody is speaking the same language at some of these. And so I want to find one where your people are doing the same type of thing. And it may be your build focus on building a firm from scratch. And that's the area that you focus on, instead of necessarily the type of law that you're doing. Don't think.
No, no, I 100%. So, look, they're they're ones that are great, because they're catch balls. And I think Fisher has done a nice job. But I think that there and that we've talked a lot about it, you know whether or not you do breakouts for the different types of groups, but to me, the plaintiffs practice very different than the non contingency practices, people that are in the studio solos versus small versus me versus larger, each of those now, do you learn stuff from people outside of Absolutely. But I think that, I think that there is value to both. But if you I would encourage people not to ignore it. What I love about what you're doing now is, again, I've been part of with you and without you in different iterations they mostly with you have different masterminds over the years. But even that I remember, it was an early DUI mastermind with an apartment, before being virtual was a virtual basketball was a hip thing. And, you know, there were people that didn't believe in digital and just had rolling paper, as their, you know, you know, as their as their marketing piece. I'm being facetious. But I do, I do believe there is great value in the closer you can get to your situation, if somebody is giving you advice, from a contingency point of view for your criminal practice. It's not always spot on. And while I would love it, I love hearing Andrew Finkelstein talk about things because he's a friggin genius. And you're always going to always do better that very often, he can't remember when he was at Life Science. And I can't always remember. And so there are elements of analysis useful. Absolutely. Is it empowering? Yes. But when it comes to the threshold question, and why I've loved doing the show with you is we're at similar stages, we still remember enough of the early stuff. And we're able to sort of add those nuances and talk it through. I've been at one where there are people, their entire world is radio, they the phone runs, magically, they're in a protected market. That's the other thing people have protected markets where stuff is different. They either hire cheaply with a cost per case is nothing. And when you have those types of things, they're awesome. But you you need to be able to not walk away, you know, upset because you can't do that I can't get $500 Pie cases in my market, it's not going to happen. And, you know, I'll give you one final example. Making sure you're talking about apples to apples. There was somebody talking about they had their their case manager handling a number of cases, that was almost triple what our PI case manager were and I felt inferior. I couldn't figure it out. I talked to friends and mentors. Well, Chuck that turned out that it wasn't that that they had one person with two people supporting them. So it was a team of three. So instead of having a team of three, I have three people. So there are certain things that you see over time. Time that when somebody says something that's way out of whack? Very often it turns out that there's a reason.
Yeah, I mean, these are, these are just some of the things that we want to talk about here in the law firm blueprint, because, you know, quite frankly, there. While we call the Law Firm Blueprint, there really is no tried and true blueprint to build the law firm of your dreams, because you really need to take the best that you can find and apply it to your unique situation. What happens in Alabama, what happens in California, what happens in DC, or Connecticut, we can give you our best input, but you're the one who's got boots on the ground. And so you're gonna you know, every like Mike Tyson says, everybody has a plan until you get hit in the face, you know. So what we're trying to do is say, hey, look, we've taken these lumps. And we're going to give you some feedback, and some advice from some guys who who've taken plenty of hits. And trust me, I've been out on the canvas a few times. But that's what it's like here in the law firm blueprint, we're just here to help you guys out. So if you want to catch up with our show, please do. So we're live every Thursday 3pm, Eastern, 12pm Pacific, here in our Facebook group. And of course, we're syndicated other Facebook groups. If you want to catch up with us, we have the law firm blueprint Facebook group, there's 2000 or so lawyers that are constantly posting questions. We've just come off a great series of hiring, managing and letting go of people in your firm systems for that we also have a whole bunch of marketing systems, says blue shark people have put together some stuff that we're going to be posting over the next couple of weeks, and I have some stuff from my marketing team. So you're going to be able to get some really, really interesting marketing ideas, and just marketing systems, things that you can systemize maybe even delegate to somebody else to help you get resolutions, which I think are awesome set. Did you have something to add to that?
Just that is awesome. And I'm pumped. I feel like we got it. We got cool branding, got some cool collateral material and can't wait for next week.
Yeah, we're really sort of accelerating things here. So folks, if you want to keep in touch with us, be sure to ask the follow. Be sure to follow us here at the law firm blueprint. You can get us the law firm blueprint wherever you catch your podcast. We are there, of course be shooted certain shirt sure to tune in every Thursday for the live show. And you because both Seth and myself on any one of the social platforms by dm or by email. But for that, Seth, I'm going to sign us off here. Great week. We'll talk about some good stuff next week. I don't even know we're sort of as things come up, we sort of want to address them. That's why this show is best live. It gives us the opportunity to really react to things that are happening live and actively happening in our law firms. So that's gonna be it for us, folks. Have a great week. Bye for now.