Welcome to another episode of The Law Firm Blueprint #SummerSeries! In this edition of The Law Firm Blueprint, hosts Jay Ruane and Seth Price are joined by a legend in the legal coaching world, Ken Hardison. With decades of experience and a deep understanding of the legal industry’s intricacies, Ken shares his insights on the vital role of coaching and the significance of mastermind groups. The trio engages in a rich discussion on the challenges and opportunities in the legal space, the importance of hiring A-players, and the strategic moves needed to scale a law firm effectively. Additionally, he touches on the critical aspect of maintaining firm culture and its impact on long-term success.
Hello, hello and welcome to this edition of The Law Firm Blueprint, I’m one of your hosts, Jay Ruane, and with me as always, is my man Seth Price, Seth over there down in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area with BluShark Digital as well as Price Benowitz. But we are joined by somebody extra special today, our friend and yours and a legend in this space. Mr. Ken Hardison who’s with us down below. Ken, thank you so much for being with us today to talk all about coaching.
It’s my pleasure. Glad to be here.
So Ken, you’ve been doing this for a minute, you know, you’ve been on my radar for almost a decade and a half. And I know that the summit has taken on a life of its own really, pretty exceptional, what we just came back from in New Orleans. And but the thing that seems to have, sort of,m been the sort of, the glue of PILMMA has been your mastermind group, which, you know if imitation is the greatest form of flattery you’re being flattered a lot, because when you started you may have been the only mastermind. And now it’s like every good, everybody’s got a mastermind. So talk to me a little bit about like your perspective, you see under the hood of a ton of law firms, you know, particularly on the injury space, you know, what, what is it that you think that people are missing? Why? Why is there right now, this proliferation of people interested in coaching and masterminds?
Good question, Seth. I think, like, well of course, nobody really knows what they want. But I think a lot of it is they kind of know what they want. But they really don’t know how to get there. And the problem is, as you grow, you can’t keep doing it the same way. I mean, every time you double after you get up past about 20 or 25 people in your firm, and you go to 50, you got to reengineer stuff. Because what worked then will not work now. And the complexity of it, you would think that your overhead would get cheaper, as you got, you know, went from 2 million to 20 million, you say, oh, god, well, then, you know, but no, it actually gets higher. So you really have to to watch the bottom line even more carefully, and be more efficient when you get bigger than you actually did when you were smaller.
I’m gonna come back to that in a second. Because we talk a lot about that, the mid level management piece, first is management. But God forbid, you get to 50. And you have somebody who’s touching people that’s not touching you, so we’ll come back to that in one moment. But when you look at coaching, I think of it in three buckets. There’s sort of seminars where you go in, you’ll learn, put the summit in one of those right? You have masterminds, and then you have one on one coaching, and I know you do all three of those. And it seems that each of those has a different place. But you know, what are your like, for somebody who just wants to get started in the space? What are your thoughts? Like, where do you go? Because I know for many years, I sort of poo-pooed it, I joined masterminds, but the coaching concept, I was like, I couldn’t figure out how to bring that in, because I felt like especially in growth mode, that there was there was so much to do that it would it was almost more trouble than it was worth to bring somebody up to speed as to what you were dealing with. So what is your take? Like? What is the journey that you see people successful with as far as getting themselves involved in getting some help that’s not just themselves?
Well, I think it depends on the person. I mean, you know, I think masterminds are really great. But I think if you know, if you want to really accelerate, if you can find somebody that you click with, and that’s the big deal, you got to find somebody, you feel comfortable with, I mean one on one coaching is great. Or, you know, I became a certified Scaling Up coach about four years ago with Verne Harnish’s you know, Rockefeller habits, which is just a more in depth EOS deal. Its really built more for firms over 10 million. You know, I think EOS is more for firms under 10 million. But I’m sure I’ll have somebody disagree with me and that’s fine, but the, just like coaching you is actually helping coach some of your people too, your mid level management, you know, like your COO, your, your marketing director, you know, your leaders on your team. You know, but
And, I think to Ken, to your point, I, ironically, live this journey, right? I’ve been a groupie of PILMMA, the original groupie, as some would say of PILMMA. But you know, what I found was I come back with crazy ideas and we built, we got ourselves past 10 million, right? So when we’re 20 million, I felt like a lull, we were sort of like, you have this big team, you have a big infrastructure. And I found that like, I was like, I was less concerned with myself. Not that there’s not always room to grow and build and want to get better, but that if I could coach up, whether it’s through Scaling Up, or EOS or anything, and get the team members raised, that is what got us closer to 30, that the actual empowering of the people, whereas you can go all to the masterminds you want, you come back with great ideas, and they are great ideas, but the only way to actually get the machine to turn is to be able to get somebody, somebody working with those people, either in a group or one on one.
Yeah, I agree. I mean, for sure. I mean, it’s, like you said, we, like I said earlier, you know, it’s, your job as the leader to own the firm really, is to coach up your mid level leaders, you know, the people underneath you, and make them great leaders. Because anybody, just off of pure determination and grit can can take a firm from 500,000 to 10 million, really, you can just, you can do it just, you know, once you get past that 10-15-20 million dollars, you’ve got to have, you’ve got to have really good people, leaders, and your job as the main leader is, because it’s never gonna go higher than you, right? What I’m saying is if you’re right here, then they can’t get any further up than what you are. So you got to keep growing. But then also you want to grow them up with you. You know, there’s a good book multipliers, I really liked that book. John Maxwell books, I like that I got certified as a leadership coach for him. With his organization, he writes a lot of good books on it. But really, that and then like Verne Harnish says your number one job is to, you know, coach up other leaders. And to make sure that the hiring is done correctly. You got to have really good executive people, you need A players, if you don’t have A players, then you’re, you know, and the people underneath you right at the first level, it’s gonna be hard to go from 20 to 30 to 40. I mean, we had that eight figure group up on the panel the other day at PILMMA, and all those, all of them, great leaders. I mean, if you listen to them, they had really good people underneath them. I mean, they knew how to do it. I mean, that’s why they went, you know, thermometer doing and 40-50- 80 million, you know, probably one of them probably doing 100 million. And that’s because they’re really good at that. So one question before I flip back to Jay, as you’re growing, there are moments and you want to go, you go to PILMMA, you see those people, you’re like everybody’s, you know, it’s sort of like all the stories you hear, everything’s perfect. But one of the things it’s humbling is you don’t always have all A players, right. And sometimes an A player has issues and is no longer an A player. And sometimes you, you don’t want to spend the money on what really is an A player, I mean, a whole bunch of different variations on, on that. And that’s, I think, psychologically, one of the tough things to balance, which is, you know, you, we say you want all A players, but what do you do when you know, in your gut, somebody’s a B player, they’re fine, they’re moving, and at some point, you may need to raise it. But for the next year, year and a half, two years, that’s not changing. And you have to get up every day, knowing best practice Ken tells me, I need an A player in every seat, but I don’t, and that’s just the reality of, that person’s there.
Well, you can’t get A players in every seat. That’s impossible, because there’s not enough of them out there. But what I’m saying is that if I, but I’m talking about people, your executive team, Right but in the executive team there are times-
No, you gotta you gotta you gotta have A players.
But, subjective term, right?
Yeah.
There’s A players, meaning it is, it’s humbling because most law firms just take the finance, finance person, right? A real CFO is about $350,000, right? You don’t need a real CFO, if you’re running a law firm, you’re gonna have a controller of some sort, right? And you get, you know, it may be a really good controller, but there are pieces to this, where, you know, to me, that’s one of those areas that I love the coaching for personally, because I see people that my controller, she’s not a CFO, but if I can bring people in like a fractional CFO to help coach them up, then at least I’m getting that person from, let’s say, what’s objectively a B to a B+ A-? And may, you know, and with time an A.
Yeah, and I think CFO would be probably one of the last things I would hire full time.
Of course.
I mean really, I mean, but I think one of the first things I would hire full time would be a COO. Once I got to-
Let’s even take that Ken, a real COO when you look across the board, that can be like, and again, I say this because this is the issue that I see with firms at 500,000, a million, they need an admin law firm administrator, you know, ops, whatever you want to call it, but that at some level, you’re getting what you pay for. And that you’re, you know, when you start off and you’re paying 100, that’s great. But at some point, you’re like, hey, you’re, you’re paying more and more, and a bunch of those guys on the panel are probably paying between 2 and $300,000, for that person. But that is, that’s an evolution. And there’s a point where, you know, what do you, again, one of the biggest cha- challenges I see people facing is you have the person who’s gotten you there. And yes, we just said earlier, the person who got you there may not get to the next level. But that’s a pretty big upheaval if that person is in place, and are you going to bring in a true COO over that person? Are you going to coach that person up to be the COO?
Well, I think first you’re gonna try to coach that person up. But if you, that don’t succeed, then you gotta go outside. And here’s why I look at A players, it does take a long time to find them. And the thing you said about paying them. Here’s why I look at A players, and of course here’s my definition of A player is Patrick [inaudible], which is be humble, but confident, be people smart, which means be able to, be, have some common sense, know how to talk to people, how to deal with people how to, how to how to be a teammate. And then be hungry, but not hungry, just for money, be hungry to grow personally, and professionally, have that burning desire to want to be more tomorrow than you are today, if you can find those three traits. And if you miss one of them, it’s disaster too, it can be disaster, right? But if you can find those three traits, it’s better to pay that person 50% more than you could get a B player, because they’re going to make you so much more money. And they’re gonna be so much better if they’re truly an A player. And of course, that is subjective, right? I mean, it’s not objective. But I think if you looked at it, and you put KPIs on it, I think you could tell real quick whether or not they were A player. You know, and I think when you’re doing a meeting to find me, and you can’t afford a COO, there are other things, like you said, firm administrators. I mean, I started out with an Office Manager, then I got a Firm Administrator, then we went to the COO. I mean, we went, you know, we had to be over 10 million before we started thinking COO, and I think, you know, unless you feel you’ve got the luxury to afford it. I mean, I got one mastermind that they are probably 5, 6 million, but the decided to take a plunge and go out, get a COO and they’re having to pay him 150 base plus some incentives so, you know, if they do good, make over 200. And they weren’t from the law firm industry, which I don’t think you have to be. I think, really, I was talking to somebody, and we’re actually getting ready to put together it’ll be probably in the fall, but we’re gonna do a virtual bit just on hiring and onboarding, but that’s where I see the biggest issues right now. That and of course, always intake. That’ll be-
Couldn’t agree more. That’s most of our episodes are hitting those two topics.
Yeah. And that’s gonna be that way forever. Because it’s always, it’s like playing golf, you’ll never master it.
But I feel like it’s getting more and more focus. Jay?
It is. It is. But I just say it, you know, but I say screw experience. I’d rather have somebody that’s got the A player qualities, or at least has great aptitude and a great attitude. I can teach skills, I can’t teach hungry, I can’t teach, Morgan says I can’t teach attitude. I can’t. But I can teach skills. And so that’s why I think this, everybody worried about get somebody with experience? Screw it. I don’t, I actually don’t want anybody with experience, because they got built in things that they’ve done, that they don’t want to change. That, are, some of them, I think, are bad habits. But anyway, that’s my thoughts on that.
Yeah, some of those people come to you with with baggage and they could be in A player someplace else. But their baggage makes them a B player in your system and that’s not going to be good for your team. So Ken, I got a question for you. And this is something I’ve been thinking about lately. You know, lawyers are sort of like the masters of delayed gratification. You know, we go through college, and then you go to law school and it takes a couple of years to go through law school. And then you got to put cases in the suit. And it takes a while for these cases to get into suit. But yet, when lawyers start doing something like getting their firm in order starting to do marketing, it’s like they want answers and results immediately. And they rush and make some of these decisions as somebody who’s seen inside hundreds of law firms across the country. Do you find that sometimes lawyers, you know, they jump in things outside of their realm and are moving too fast to actually be creative and do things the right way. Because they just see these, you know, they get their eyes are too big for their stomach.
It’s not just lawyers, it’s a lot of business people that are entrepreneurs at heart. I’ve had that problem over the years. I’m doing a lot better now. But, uh, you have to be very concious. I call it the next shiny object, you know, the deal is you get distracted at whatever. And or you’re trying to take over the world overnight. And, you know, you can grow too fast. You can grow yourself broke, if you’re not careful because of cashflow, right? I mean, I talked about it at the summit. I mean, you know, you can get by, I mean, you can get back with B players, you can get by with just okay marketing, but when you run out of cash, man, it’s over with. I mean, that’s why most businesses fail, they undercapitalize, right? I’m not just talking about law firms. I’m talking about everybody.
And law firms, as Jay is saying, don’t generally capitalize themselves. They just start up like present company included.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I started with 2500 dollars. That’s what I started with. I remember it like it was yesterday, even though it was like 40 years ago. 42. Yeah, I mean, you know, and that, that takes, I mean, only way you can grow fast is you have to borrow money. And if you’re not, if you waste it, that’s what I think, I think lawyers are the worst, PI lawyers are even worse than just regular lawyers is that they, they’re not very strategic in thinking things through. What I mean by that is you need to think about, before you go and go out, I mean, I had a lawyer. He had a big verdict. I mean, a big settlement had like 2 or 3 million in cash and he wanted me to show him, you know, he wanted me to tell him exactly how to spend the money. But he had no systems in place. He had no processes in place. And he, and he, he didn’t have any core values. He didn’t have that set up, he did not even have what I call a differentiator, I mean, what is going to be your message and who is your ideal client, you need to think about all this stuff before you go out and just start throwing money up against the wall like spaghetti and see what sticks, and what don’t stick. What is your purpose in doing this? Is it bransing, is it to get you know, is it direct response? I mean, what I mean, who is your ideal client? What did he, what do they watch? What do they read? Where do they go? You know, you know, if you’ve got this type of accident, what do you, what do you? What are they going to meet me before or immediately after the incident that makes them more, that makes them need a lawyer? Whether it be a trucking accident, a motorcycle accident? Be a brain injury or RSD? Or, you know, or mass tort case? I mean, whatever it is, you need to think about this. I mean, we had one lawyer one time, spent over $100,000 on hip replacement ads in North Carolina, it wasn’t me, I promise, and come to find out, they never sold that, that brand of hip replacements in North Carolina. So that’s the kind of thing that I see, just blows my mind. And I assume you know, what happens when you assume anything, right?
It’s also I think, part of the look, the good and bad, it’s it’s been probably an entertaining run, the characters you meet in the PILMMA universe are amazing. But it’s, they’re not the average Joes. I mean, it’s cowboys, some of whom are a little bit more out there than others. There’s some very thoughtful, very smart ones. And there are other ones that are very smart, but they just take crazy risks. And I think that area of law brings that in if you were risk averse, you would not be in the plaintiff space, you’d be billing hours and know what you’re making.
That’s right. Yeah. And I think you do have to take some risks to go big. But I think they need to be calculated risk, you know what I’m saying? And I think also, the more mature your business gets, I think you need to really think about taking really more calculated risks, the risk needs to be safer risk. Because listen, I was one of the biggest risk takers in the world in my 30s, and early 40s. 50s and 60s, not so much, I still take some risks, but they are a hell of a lot more calculated. I mean sometimes my wife don’t think so but- they really are after, you should have seen me 25 years ago, I said. Because I knew. I knew I kind of knew how to make money and I’d figured out some way to make it, I’ve just always been able to, you know husrtle one way or another and even if I make a mistake and I’ve lost some money before, I knew I could make it back because I know will never give up. You know, but when you get in your 50s abd 60s I mean, you don’t have as much time to make it up, right? And plus, you got a lot more people, the bigger you get to get a lot more people depending on you not just your family, but your employees, and you should care about them, right?
Absolutely. So look, hiring, right, I think more important than ever. And I guess with virtual, international, it’s just become more complex, the more buttons that you can push. But we touched on something earlier that Jay and I have talked to a bunch of people about, which is, it’s one thing to get your first management team together, right, you have that org chart that you start out with and you may be in three places. And now all of the sudden, you start to put people in these different slots. But one of the scariest things, and this doesn’t apply to some of our, you know, sort of, you know, zero to a million people. But as you get bigger, the fact that you’re now hiring for people to be direct reports to a manager, not you, who are then managing people. And to me, that’s one of those areas that when I sit through a PILMMA mastermind, I know, it’s sort of unique to the levels of firms that you’re touching. That, and is a skill set that they don’t teach a lot at law school, this seems like the furthest thing, because you have to somehow, you know, you went before where the force of nature, whether it be Jay or Ken or myself, that can get you to, as you said, like 10 million. But when you want to actually be able to build beyond you and the people you touch, very often you’re left with this, this idea that you’re, it’s one more step removed. And that I believe we hear so much talk about culture, that’s where like, whereas before, not that you didn’t think about culture, but culture was you, whatever Jay or Ken was that was the culture of the firm. And now, if you have something bigger than you, so that you can emanate that feeling up and down. And I think that was one of the things I was late to the game in figuring out, which was the force of nature, that got us to one point, that the hiring and culture sort of come together, because without that, you’re just putting butts in seats, as opposed to figuring out how to bring a commonality that has a chance of rowing in the same direction.
Yeah, I will say this, I looked at some of the most successful firms and ones I’ve seen growing the fastest, without taking crazy risks are the ones that put a lot of effort into hiring great people. And training those people, you know, they really, its like at the top of their list, and they’ve got a good culture. And they care about their employees, and they show it every day. And they really go after the best. And, and they do things that other firms don’t, I mean, I mean, I can, I’m not gonna call names, but I can think of three or four firms right now that have quadrupled in the last six years. And they really put the emphasis on that and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s paid off. I mean, I’m gonna tell you, it’s paid off.
When you, from when you started, because I’ve been part of the PILMMA community for a while. If you just crowdsource names, like you see on those pretty things. You know, culture was not something that people were focused on 12 years ago,
No. No. I used to think it was gobbly gook, I thought it-
Same and I would see the guys would have a plaque on their wall of words that they didn’t believe in or anything else. What, what do you, as we reflect back and I agree with you completely it is it is the glue that holds it together. I’ve spent a lot of time with Bill Biggs and others just focused, you know, on this, this very simple but difficult concept. What do you think was the turning point? Was it the fact that all of a sudden, you know, before when you started there are a lot of firms $1 to 55 million, and as some of these $1 to $5 million firms became $10 to $20 million firms. It just became essential that it was no longer that the maniacal CEO screaming and yelling just, what was a house of cards, and those guys weren’t growing like what is why why has that change? Because I agree with you completely that, my, at least my perception is fully done a 180 over the last couple of years.
Well I think, I mean, look at PILMMA. 15 years ago, PILLMA, we were lucky if we were getting anybody to even talk to us. I mean, it’s, it’s this market’s got so competitive, PI market in the last 10-15 years, last 10 years especially. It’s so saturated. It’s so competitive. That people you know, they’re having a look at what is working and what’s not working. And what’s working is like what I said, I see the firms that are doing the best, and they got a great culture and they really put a lot of money and time and effort into hiring really good people and raising them up and creating, you know, as Bill Biggs says, lifers. I mean, because, you know, I’ve heard all this stuff about, you know, [inaudible] people now, they’ll go through 50 jobs in 20 years, maybe, but I think your A players, tend to stay with you, if you got a good culture, you treat them right, they know you care, you know, you take an interest in their personal development. I just think it’s more self- I think it’s more self awareness, really. And I think the reason that people got more aware about it is because competition, you know, you gotta, you can’t do things the same way over and over, you know, you see these other guys come in and just blow by you.
Jay’s got a great question, which I’d never thought of before.
So, Ken, this you know, this is, I want to go back to the concept of an A and B player. And, you know, as somebody who has coached, you know, like we said, hundreds of lawyers, what do you say to a lawyer, when that lawyer either comes to the realization or you come to that realization in your conversation with them that, that lawyer who’s the CEO, or whatever you want to call them, that lawyer is the B player, they don’t play well with others. They’re very headstrong my way or the highway. And by sheer force, they’ve grown to a certain level. And they’re saying now I want to keep going. But they’re actually the B player in their operation, maybe they’re not as passionate about the subject matter anymore. how do you counsel somebody to either become the A player they used to be or just, I don’t know, what do you do-
Do you hire around it so that-
Or hire around it, but then you poison all the people around you on your leadership team? If you’ve got a bunch of A’s and you’re the B, they’ll be talking about- How do you deal with that sort of a situation? Because I think that’s something that might be happening as people, you know, they become financially secure. They their heart isn’t in it so much anymore, but they liked the revenue stream. But you know, I mean, I’m thinking of myself as maybe I’m a B player in my office now.
Well, I think it depends on, listen, I’m a B player on certain things. But that’s okay. But are you talking about leadership? Are you talking about management? Or are you talking about, I’m a C when it comes to technology, I’m probably a B- when it comes to man- I can teach management, but as far as managing people. I’m terrible at it because I hate it. I don’t have any passion for it. I think I’m a great leader. I think I’m a great idea guy. I’m not a great implementer per se, I can hold people accountable. But when I get somebody like that, I mean, number one, I’ve got this no asshole rule about masterminds, so if I think you’re that, you’re probably not gonna get passed the front door with me, just to be honest with you. Life’s to short. But if I got somebody that turns into that, there’s a good book called was it crucial conversations? And I would probably reread that book again, and sit down with them. And give them a frank talk and say, Listen, I’m not doing this to jump on your bones, I’m doing this to help you. You can’t see it, ot you’re refusing to see it, but, if we’re going to continue to, If I’m gonna continue to work with you, or you’re gonna continue to be in a mastermind, you’re gonna have to make some efforts to change. And sometimes they can, and sometimes they can’t. I mean, it’s really just being honest. But being, you don’t have to be a jerk about it. When you talk to somebody you can be, if you do it sincerely, with, with, with love and, and really for their best interest, and they understand that, if they’re so far gone, they’re not gonna see that. I mean, you know, let’s be honest, if you got a narcissistic person, you’re wasting your time, I don’t waste my time on narcissists, I just get rid of them, life’s too short, just to be honest with you. But then sometimes, I’ve had that happen with with employees. They were A players. And then something dramatic happened in their life, I’ll never forget. Girl I had was just, man, spot on. And then her boyfriend broke up with her and moved away. And she just lost it. She couldn’t get focused anymore. And she, all she thought about was him. And I tried to get her some counseling to try to do this. And then just, I fired her. You know? I mean, she went from A to a C. You know, and then some of it they can’t help, but I think if you can, usually there’s something in their life going on, and sometimes you can help them I mean, who knows what, you never know what’s going on in people’s lives. I mean, I mean, I mean, somebody might have cancer, they might have a son with a drug problem. I mean, you just don’t know. And I think if you go in there sincerely trying to help them. Sometimes you can pull them out of it. Sometimes you can’t. But here’s the bottom line. When I’m making decisions there are two things I look at. My core values. The alignment with my core values. And is it in the best interest of the firm? Not Ken Hardison, the firm. You take those two guiding lights, you can solve any problem and make any decision very quickly. If you get stuck with a problem like that, go to your core values and look at them, it’ll give you the answer. And then ask yourself this question: is what’s in the best interest of this law firm? Might not be the best interest for me either, personally, but what’s in the best interest for law firm? If you can be brutally honest with yourself and answer that question. I think you can take care of a lot of your issues. You really can.
I love that. I love that. Seth?
No, this is this, is great. Thank you so much Ken. I appreciate your time, it was, you know, I- there- it is a crowded space. But I’m just amazed at the fact that the summit has become this sort of gathering of, of top industry minds and the conversation that go on in the hallways is, not to mention the stuff going on on the stage, is just tremendous. And I was there when it was in a under construction Sheraton in Atlanta, and to see you now at the fanciest hotels in the world? Pretty cool.
Well, thank you. And it’s people like you that made it that way. Just to be honest with you, it wasn’t me. I’ve always said it’s, you know, you can never get anywhere without help from other people. And if you don’t recognize that you’re probably not gonna stay that long. You know? Yeah, we’ve been, I think one thing that’s happened is, to be honest with you, and I tell people like that, and they get worried when John Morgan comes into their, their city, I say, listen, it can actually help you. Because he’s gonna make it so much aware that you can get a lawyer for nothing, and do this. And, and, you know, these types of cases are worth something. I said, that’s what I think’s happening to PILMMA. Everybody’s out there doing this now. And so people are becoming much more aware that there’s stuff out there like it, and that are structured around.
You know, I wonder if this applies to you. I try to say generally, I don’t want to sell SEO at BluShark. If you want SEO, I’ll show you why we think we’re the best for you. And I feel like it’s sort of, you know, explain to somebody why they should be in a mastermind. That’s not easy. If they want a mastermind, you can say this is why this group is great. And you have the opportunity to advance over time, and there’s a whole community. And so I feel like the competition for you has built a market where people now understand the value of a mastermind. And now the question is, do they, do they want Ken to steer the ship or not?
Yeah, I think you’re right. I think you’re definitely right. I mean, you know, it’s the, I think people are seeing the value of it. I saw the value of it 25 years ago, because I was in one that had nothing to do with law. And I know it’s helped me over the years. And I mean, it just shortcuts it. I mean, you know, like anything else you get, you get out of what you put in it, but you got to go home and do something, which that’s a whole nother, that’s a whole nother episode.
Very good.
I can say, Ken, you know, I’m not in the PI space at all, I’m in the criminal space and the times that I’ve been able to come to a PILMMA event, I can’t tell. I can’t say that there’s another event that I’ve been to where I’ve gotten more actionable takeaways, that I could tweak a little and apply to my practice than at a PILMMA event. So even if you’re not in the PI space, you know, these events are have great, great things that you can then adapt to your own practice, no matter what you’re doing. So I highly, highly recommend them. So Ken, thank you so much for being with us today. Of course, folks. If you want to catch us, you can take us on the go by subscribing to The Law Firm Blueprint podcast, and you can catch our show live every week. 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific in The Law Firm Blueprint Facebook group, but that’s going to do it for us today. Once again, thank you to our guest. Ken Hardison, thank you so much for being with us. This has been a great series and you are on the Mount Rushmore of coaches when it comes to the practice and the business of law. So thank you for being with us. Seth, any final words?
No, just enhoying this series and thankful Ken made the time to be here.
Yes, thanks again, Ken.
Thank you. It was a pleasure. Take care.
All right folks. That’s going to do it for us. Bye for now.
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