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Lee 7:35

And what we do as lawyers, whether you want to call it the persuasion arts, but what are we doing in front of a judge or to opposing counsel or to an adjuster, whoever it is you’re trying to sell yourself, sell your client, sell your point. You just might be doing it in a different way.

Lee 30:11

And I think it can work, but to answer your question directly, I think you need to have people on your team that embody what the firm stands for, right?

Transcript: 

BluShark Digital  0:00  

Ladies and gentlemen, tonight’s spotlight shines on the rising stars of the legal world, where young firms, bold ideas, and smarter systems take center stage, standing tall at the intersection of law and leadership. He’s the digital strategist, the legal growth architect, the man with the mic, make some noise for your host. This is Legal Currents with Will McCreight.

Will  0:29  

All right, welcome back to another episode of the Legal Currents podcast. Very special guest today, we have Lee Rudin from Rudin Law. Lee is based out in New Orleans, and is somebody that I actually reached out to just completely cold outbound DM through LinkedIn after seeing him on my feed time and time again. Lee has built a fantastic brand for himself, stuff that we’re going to unpack and talk through, and I’m very excited to have you on, Lee.

Lee Rudin  0:57  

Thanks, Will. Appreciate you having me on and looking forward to yucking it up with you.

Will  1:02  

Yeah, absolutely. And prior to starting the recording here, Lee and I were just talking about, coincidentally, just his familiarity with Seth, our founder, who also is the founder of Price Benowitz, and we were laughing about how Seth seems to have a connection through some fraternity member with probably everybody in the country at this point, which is a skill in itself, right? And Lee, I guess my first question for you is, you know, I’d love to kind of hear a little bit more about your journey in your own words. I’m sure that I didn’t do any justice it with my introduction there. And I’d love to hear, you know, a quick summary of your story, I guess, over these past couple of years.

Lee Rudin  1:45  

Well, you know, I know you get a variety of listeners to the podcast, and so I think you know where I add the most value, in terms of telling you my story, is that this wasn’t something that I choreographed. I had no designs on owning my own firm. You know, I joke. This is not an ego project. I don’t care about that. You know, my last name happens to work with the brand, and that’s why it is what it is. But if I had a partner, and that partner had a better last name, we’d be calling it the partner’s last name. I was working at, I worked at several defense firms before I started this firm, and I was a partner or a shareholder in all of them, but it really wasn’t about having my name on the door, right? I didn’t push for that. It was more so I think I can go develop business better if you make me a partner. Even if it’s a name partner only, and that proved to be true, because there’s a cachet that comes with somebody at that next level. And so, you know this firm I fell into because my old firm made me the offer I had to refuse. They didn’t like necessarily like that I was growing a plaintiff injury firm in their insurance defense firm. Even though I was generating money, it wasn’t the kind of money they wanted, and there was going to be a conflict. And so through a variety of messaging, I said, “Okay, I got to go.” And I just, you know, I was on I’ve told this story before, but I was on vacation. They told me two days before I was leaving. I spent the entirety of that vacation talking to people I knew locally, and said, “What do I need to do to start this firm?” And the truth is, you don’t need a lot to start. To survive you do, but to start, what do you need at this point? You need a laptop and maybe a connection to a research database, and hopefully a couple of clients, because you do have to pay bills at some point. That’s a start, but you need more than that to survive.

Will  3:30  

Yeah, and maybe $100 a month to Claude or something like that these days, right? There’s a better time. I think, obviously, the biggest challenge there, and something that I am always just extremely impressed by is when people actually take that step right? It’s an easy thing to think about. It’s a difficult thing to actually make. Was there a specific turning point for you some day where it said, Hey, enough’s enough that, you know, this is time for me to go out and really create this thing on my own.

Speaker 1  4:01  

Yeah, I mean, they so. I was working with people that I was very friendly with, that I had known for over a decade. I clerked this law firm when I started in law school. One of the name partners there was a really good friend of mine. you know, a couple of years my senior, you know, we kind of saw that we could grow that firm together the way that the two more senior partners had done it. But I really liked working for the individual, not for the corporation, not for the insurance company. And so when I saw that, and saw the opportunity there to really be an excellent networker, help people, and see that it can snowball, I said, this is really where I want to be. And then when they told me that financially, the deal would have to change, and they would limit what kind of business I could generate, who I could help. I said, this isn’t going to work. And so they told me this, that two days before I left for vacation, and I didn’t say shit to them for a month. And eventually they cornered me and said, Lee. my buddy cornered me and said, Lee, you haven’t said anything about this. We dropped this bomb, and you don’t do anything. I said, Well, I was doing things. I just wasn’t telling you what I was doing, and that was really it.

Will  5:04  

Yeah, you know, I think it’s interesting. The thing that stands out to me is that, well before you actually had your own firm, you were building your personal brand, right? And something that I think is very clear in the research that I’ve done, but also just seeing you across my pages, is that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, you absolutely have that skill of branding, right, of marketing yourself? Is that a learned trait, or is that something that you feel like you’ve you’ve always had?

Speaker 2  5:37  

It’s something I’ve always had. I think that there’s an element of, you can teach people to sell, right? You can teach people the skills to sell, but there are people that have certain characteristics, charisma and ability to connect with others. And I always joke. I don’t like to flatter myself in that way. I really don’t. It makes me uncomfortable, but I understand that I’m a chameleon. I can go into many rooms. I’ll say, almost any room, and find a way to fit in without being fake about it. And there’s a lot of that that you need to be able to do in this business, because you’re working with people that are flying around on private jets, and you’re also working with people that don’t know how they’re paying that next rent bill. And if you can’t relate to all of them, you’re going to find yourself in a room that you don’t fit. And so that ability is invaluable, and it’s not something you necessarily can teach. So that’s worked out really well for me.

Will  6:35  

I love everything that you just said. I think that’s probably one of the most important skills in life, right? And like that, you mentioned the word sales, which I think some firms tend to shy away from. You know, or having that word sales, but really, that, that I think is a lot of building a business, or even just life in general, right? It’s the ability to step into a room and fit in with whatever that room looks like. And I’d imagine that at least it sounds like it has been a big part in your ability to build these relationships and meet people, whether it’s trying to build a referral base or it’s trying to, you know, I guess sign a client, right? And it sounds like that’s something that you’d agree with.

Lee Rudin  7:20  

Yeah, I do. And you know, I think that sales sometimes has a nasty connotation to it, much like being an ambulance-chasing personal injury lawyer, which is how I introduce myself to people. But all of life is selling, right? And what we do as lawyers, whether you want to call it the persuasion arts, but what are we doing in front of a judge or to opposing counsel or to an adjuster, whoever it is you’re trying to sell yourself, sell your client, sell your point. You just might be doing it in a different way. And so when we acknowledge that, and that every conversation we have is us trying to sell something to someone in some way, then we can take the next step forward and figure out, well, how does this work for who I am and what I’m striving to accomplish?

Will  8:06  

Yeah, how crucial has just that in-person, relationship-building been for you when it comes to scaling your firm, right? There are many different ways to grow scale the firm, whether it be referral networking, digital marketing, you know, billboards, TV, right? There’s a lot of different ways to go about it. And not to say that, you know, all that you’re doing is, is, you know, building these relationships. Because that’s by no means the case from everything that I’m seeing. But it sounds like that’s a big part of what you’ve, you know, attempted to create as a foundation of that growth. Would you agree with that? 

Lee Rudin  8:43  

I do. I mean, look, I think if you talk to any law firm owner, if you talk to any business consultant, they will tell you the best cases in any firm are the ones that come by referral. They just you can’t shake trees and put out billboards and acquire those great cases, because the great cases come because somebody knows you. They like you, and they trust you, and so they’re willing to make that referral for that dear friend of theirs who got into the very serious wreck, or whatever it is. And so what I saw in starting my firm was just what happens by doing this. You know, I had organically grown a practice when I wasn’t even an injury lawyer. I was a defense lawyer working on the other side. So the thought was, if I invest in this space, and I said, this is what I’m doing, and I tell everybody what I’m doing in that hand-to-hand combat kind of way, then let’s see what happens. And it has done what I thought it would do, which is consistently grow over time. And then the question becomes, which I think you were alluding to, is, what else do you do to throw fuel on the fire? I said that praying for a referral is not a business strategy, so but it doesn’t mean that you can’t foster referral relationships, and that’s through different community events and engaging with other folks who might be social movers and have connections to people in the community, so that they can refer you. Then there’s also the offline play, right? Your TV, radio, billboards, and your traditional. the online play, whether it’s through SEO or LSA, PPC. I’m heavy in social media, but I just think that’s a place that I fit in, well, somewhat of a blue ocean, still, despite how many years we’ve been in it. So it’s a matter of finding your lane, figuring out what fits you best, and then also what kind of wherewithal do you have to make an effect in that space? Because you come in with five grand a month, like I wouldn’t go on TV, you’re gonna get drowned out. It’s gonna be, you know, lighting your money on fire. So that’s been my mentality.

Will  10:51  

Yeah, nd even as someone myself, right, who works in that digital space, I feel very strongly that before you get into anything like that, you need to have a strong, rooted presence right in your community. you need to have these relationships. To me, that’s the biggest piece that is is going to protect firms from a mega player coming into the space and just, you know, pouring cash, you know, to however you want to be marketing.

Lee Rudin  11:17  

I think that you know, again, if you read the books, you listen to the podcast, you talk to the people who know this space. Absolutely, get out in the community, build those relationships, because that’s where the cases are going to come from. But that really can’t be the only thing you’re doing, at least not in my opinion. And you know, when I hear people complaining about all the billboard lawyers are trash. Well, okay, then if you’re not trash, then get out there and tell people who you are and what you’re doing so they don’t hire that shitty lawyer like that. You owe it to the client base if you actually give a shit about helping them to let them know who you are, and they can find you and figure out how to get that messaging across in a way that matters to them, because that’s what’s going to be persuasive, not what matters to you. They don’t care that you were the super lawyer for 12 years running. They might care about something else, and you got to figure out what that is and get it in front of them so they can hire you.

Will  12:03  

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more that piece on social is one that I want to kind of circle back towards, because one of the most common questions that we get right is like, you know, a firm that is, you know, maybe coming to us like, Hey, should we be doing social? Should we be, you know, looking at a LinkedIn or, you know, Instagram, whatever the case may be? And it’s a really difficult question to answer. I’m curious to learn about your experiences. It’s something that you place a high degree of focus on. What have you found to come from those efforts? Have you found it to be heavy on referrals? Have you found it to be a big source of, like, new clients somewhere between?

Lee Rudin  12:49  

Yeah, so when people talk about social, and I spoke on this, at least a segment of my presentation at PIMCON was talking about that, did we get digital presence right? I called it Get Digital. And there are two components of that that I think are important. There’s the defensive presence, right? That’s your website. That might be your organic social meaning. We have stuff up that if you come to look for Rudin Law, and you go to getrudelaw on Instagram or Tiktok or YouTube, you can see that we have an active presence. There’s content there that will be educational. Some of it’s funny, it’s different. And then you understand, okay, this is a real lawyer. This is the firm. This is who they are. This is what they speak on and what they care about. Is it the right fit for me? Maybe, maybe not. But if there’s nothing there, then how do you get educated on the firm? Yeah, maybe the website. But I think folks are going to Facebook, they’re going to Instagram. They’re trying to see who you are, because that’s where they’re spending a lot of their time. Is staring at their phones, you know? And I laugh. I was talking to one of the I was talking to my old digital marketing vendor, and now I’ve had conversations with newer ones, and I said, guys, I know we built these websites for the desktop, but shouldn’t we be building digital first, like mobile first, and then work backwards, since most people are staring at their phones anyway, and I get some pushback, but I do believe that the majority of people are seeing you on that device in their hand.

Will  14:21  

Yeah. So I think you’re selling yourself short in the sense of, you know what you’re doing out there for you, right? And, you know, maybe for a lot of firms, that social piece is, you know, maybe a form of a first impression, right? But I also think for you, something that you’re doing is you’re getting out in front of people, right? You got out in front of me, right? Even just when, when I saw these things and asked you to come on the podcast. To your point, I know you; you did speak out at PIMCON, right? That’s I was actually there as well. Was that an intentional effort to translate this into things like speaking, or did it just kind of happen?

Lee Rudin  14:58  

YEah it all kind of happened. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna answer your question, but I’m gonna. But I’m gonna go back first, so I talk about a defensive presence. The other part of it is an offensive presence, and that is understanding the advertising ecosystem digitally. And I’m gonna set aside the Google world, maybe save for YouTube. But if you’re advertising on Meta or on YouTube, right, you’re paying to be in front of people. The way the algorithm works these days, that’s probably your best bet of getting in front of them, because you can’t really predict if your stuff’s getting shown to your followers this week or not this week. So you want to pay to target the people who are your prospective clients, you know? And so when I’m looking at our digital presence on Meta in particular, of course, I’m looking at what leads did we generated? What conversions from those leads? But I’m also looking to see is our follower count is growing from people that aren’t you, Will, or aren’t my friends, because that tells me that’s a face that I don’t know that followed me because of my ad. Well, something in that ad resonated, and that’s what I want. I want to be walking down the street and someone to be like, Oh, that’s the get rude guy. Now they could be like, fuck, that’s the “Get Rude” guy. I hate that guy. That’s fine. I don’t care about that. I just want to know that. You know who I am, and then we’ll deal with the rest of it.

Will  16:13  

Yeah, yeah. You know what it’s, I guess it’s any sort of you want to invoke any sort of emotion, right? Like any emotion, whether good or bad, means that they know.

Lee Rudin  16:17  

I looked at my wife the other day, and I’ve said this to her so many times, and she probably hates me for it, but I said, if you can’t be famous, be infamous because they know you, and if they don’t know you, you’re invisible, and you can never sell them, right? So that’s my mentality, and I do all sorts of dopey shit. I’m in this office is brand new. We just renovated it. It’s beautiful inside, but outside it is yellow, like a yellow that the paint company was, like, we have to see this building. I can’t you’re buying this to paint the exterior. I have these massive, get rude light up letters on the front. We put up fencing that doesn’t connect to each other, and it’s just there literally, so I can wrap it with messaging, as I like decide I want to write something new right now it says, get hurt, get rude. But like, if Mardi Gras rolls around and I want to say hit by a float, get rude, like I can in a very inexpensive way, because I have the physical infrastructure for it. So I just think about all the things I can do so that people know who I am, where I am, so that we can help them if the need arises and if there’s a desire, but they got to know where we are first and who we are.

Will  17:30  

Yeah, it sounds like these decisions are ones that you feel need to be very intentional, right? Not just putting information out there, or, you know, promoting yourself, but making sure that you’re intentional behind how that visibility is going to translate to being remembered,

Will  17:46  

But that super fantastic insight, you know, it’s, it’s something where the social media presence is a lot easier said than done. I mean, for me, what I always tell people is, the ones who are successful on social media would probably be doing it, whether or not it was bringing them in cases every single month. I think that’s a big piece of it. It’s, it’s a very difficult thing to outsource, is what I would argue. If you really want that consistency,

Lee Rudin  18:20  

There needs to be authenticity to it. So, you know, again, the posting story is doing the stuff that’s organic. You’re 100% right, like you. If you hate it, you’re not going to do it. Now you there’s ways to get around it, meaning you can fill a whole bunch of content and it can get doled out over time. But you know, in terms of running ads, you should be creating tranches of content that have somebody who’s a professional guide you as to like, what these should look like, how they’re effective, because the worst thing you want to do is be boring, you know, and boring and the same as everybody else. Because if you’re unique and boring, maybe you do actually convert on social but if you’re just like everybody else, then you’re going to spend money and no one’s going to know who you are, and you’re going to be back where you started, and you’re going to say, well, but Will and Lee told me to run social ads. It’s like, Yeah, but not those. Those are terrible.

Will  19:16  

Yeah, I always make fun of myself another white guy with a podcast, right? How are you different than than being just another white guy with a podcast? 

Lee Rudin  19:23  

I said the same thing. And you know, so when I not about you, Will, about myself.

Will  19:31  

Well, you know,

Lee Rudin  19:31  

If you walk out of this office and you hook a hard left, there’s a rack that I bought that’s got all sorts of costumes on it. And so if you follow me on social, you see that I’ll do all sorts of silly things in costumes, and we’re not running ads on all of those some, but not all, but a lot of it was just to have fun. And then if someone came to our page, they’re gonna be like, What the heck is this like? Why is the guy dressed like a clown? Why is he the Cat in the Hat? Why does he have a trilogy of Bobby Boucher from the water boy videos, like I got to figure out more. And again, I don’t need you to like me, but at least, if you’re inquisitive, I have your attention, and that gives me a shot at getting you to know me, like me. And if the need arises, hire me. That’s it.

Will  20:17  

Yeah, you know, we talked about that idea of sales earlier, and something that comes to mind to me when it comes to your brand, is pattern interrupt, right? And for anybody who’s listening, right, pattern interrupt is essentially the idea of it makes you pause because it’s so different than what most of the you know other experiences might be, and like, “get rude”, right? Or just the name in general, that is absolutely a pattern interrupt. Is that intentional?

Lee Rudin  20:44  

That part of it for sure. You know, we would be on a podcast with one of your peers and say, you know, Will, are you tired of getting pushed around by insurance companies? And they look at me side-eyed, and then I’d say, Well, you’ve got to stop being polite and get rude. And I’d get the smirk or the chuckle, and I realized this is going to work, because people aren’t expecting it. It’s different. It’s super punchy, like it’s hard to forget. So I figured it would work in that way. And depending on who you are, you either love it because you think it means something that maybe it doesn’t, or you hate it because you think it doesn’t. But if you’re on either side, at least, you know it, you remember it, and that gives me a puncher’s chance in hell amongst a very crowded, not only legal space, but attention-consuming space.

Will  21:35  

Yeah, your digital presence across the board is very pattern interrupt, and that’s something that I think is absolutely going to be beneficial, especially in a really competitive market like New Orleans. One thing that I did pick up in my research, and I believe that you, you mentioned that the firm itself opened the doors in 23 you hit seven figures in that first year. I want to hear from you. What would you consider to be like, the least sexy decision that you made over the course of those first 12 months that you think mattered the most? Because that’s very impressive growth to see in your first year.

Lee Rudin  22:09  

Yeah, look, and I don’t want anybody to listen to what I’m saying and think that I’m, you know, trying to be somehow or another deceptive, right? Because I’m not. The idea here is that when I came out, I didn’t come out with no cases, so I had work to be done that I saw would pay out over a certain period of time, which said, If I can just hold on for dear life, then I will have cash flow coming in the doors. And then I’ve said I’ll be aggressive, and I will put money in while I’m waiting for the other money to come in. And again, hold on tight, and then hope to generate cases in that way, so that, you know, maybe the cases from day one settle out in month six, but the cases that I’m acquiring in month one will settle out towards the end of the year. So again, that helps drive the revenue, and a lot of it, you know, I talked to a friend of mine in the area who’s just smaller than me and started a little bit after me. I said, You got to be willing to spend, you know, in whatever space you’re you’re intent on advertising. The way to do it is to put money behind, even if it’s just grassroots, like make sure you have good merch or good giveaways, or a table skirt. The simple stuff to get out in front of people and then have an ability to follow up with them. Because it can’t just be a hit it and quit it mindset. There has to be the repetition if you want to build a relationship. And then the relationships is what leads to the eventual for all the case.

Will  23:41  

Yeah, so it sounds, it sounds like, to me, really, like the two biggest things are, you know, a, the work here was happening well before the firm itself began. But then also B, you clearly do a great job of, you know, understanding that you need to go out and make it happen. It’s not just going to fall into your lap. And I do think that cost of inaction is something that firms struggle with early on.

Lee Rudin  24:06  

100%. you have to be willing to spend. And you know, I people were so kind to me with their, you know, their intellectual contribution to me. So I had somebody as a sounding board to say, Well, what do you think about this? Or does this make sense? And then I’m happy to be that for anybody, but don’t go and say, Oh, I’m just gonna go throw this money over here because some vendor or salesperson tells me to maybe go talk to someone who’s been there before, and hopefully you get a trusted guy who says, yeah, that’s not enough. I would not put my money there until I had x dollars, then you can actually make an impact, because putting it in at the level that you want is going to have no effect, and you’re going to look at it in a jaded way. And really, all you needed was a little tweak to the advice to figure out, oh, this actually could work, but I’m not ready for it yet. and when I’ve talked to folks, in certain spaces, and they give me that advice, especially when they’re trying to sell me. I love them immensely for it, because I’d love to come back to you when I’m ready, because now you did me right, as opposed to taking my money, burning me, and I’m never going to want to talk to you, or probably any of your competitors.

Will  25:16  

I think that’s such an important thing. When it comes to the vendor space in general, it’s, you know, understanding when the time isn’t right. Because ultimately, it’s a partnership when the time is not right. What that is going to result in is a relationship that’s unlikely to be successful, right? And I think that’s super important, but it’s not something that you always hear and your point on building the relationships to have that knowledge to learn from someone else, I think is huge. How would you suggest someone go out and find those relationships if they don’t know where to start?

Lee Rudin  25:52  

I think that folks don’t give others enough credit, and people are generally giving and people are also egotistical. So if you reach out to somebody, Hey, I heard you on a podcast. You were awesome. Can I pick your brain for a few minutes? Someone’s gonna find the time like You’re flattering them, and they’re gonna want to tell you all the things they know because they think they’re the smartest guy in the room. And I don’t mean that to say that, that’s why I do it. Honestly, I appreciate that people even listen and they thought I had something good to say, and I’d like to help them. I also understand that helping others is the way that I got to be where I am. You know, folks helped me, and it’s good karma to pay it forward, but this is also a small world. And you know, I’m in New Orleans, so I know everybody has friends and family members that come to New Orleans for fun or conferences. So maybe just by being decent to somebody when their friend gets hurt in New Orleans in a Lyft or an Uber from the airport, they’re calling me because they know me, because I was cool to talk to them after the podcast. I don’t know, but that’s my mentality and people. They’ve called it this abundance mentality. And I like that idea is, try to be as giving as you can. It can’t be endless. But how much do you lose from getting on a call or a zoom with someone for 20 minutes or even an hour? You can find the time to make it up.

Will  27:14  

Yeah, I actually, I think you mentioned the way I even got on your radar a little bit, was by jumping on David Vicknair’s podcast, or having him on mine, or something, right? He’s somebody who’s in your market. I imagine you guys have some sort of relationship, and you care a lot of the same qualities, as far as your approach to helping others, but also the way in which you’ve grown scale the firm through making intentional decisions.

Lee Rudin  27:38  

It’s funny, because in the end, right? We are competitors, right? David’s a great guy, and I know him because others in our space said you should meet David like he’s my buddy in New Orleans. You’re my buddy in New Orleans. You guys should meet. So we had coffee probably about a month or so back. Now, maybe two months back. And you come to realize a lot of us are kindred spirits, and we really are striving towards the same goals. Of course, if we want to grow our firms and we want to get all the clients, but there’s a lot of clients. there’s a lot of people to help. And you can find others that are doing it with you, and you can share ideas, maybe not the exact idea in your market, but there’s good vendors to work with where maybe they’re offering services that everybody needs, not competitive services. And I think that doing that here and then doing it with others in different markets. you can learn from everybody. And again, we’re all striving to help the client and fight the big, bad, evil insurance companies.

Will  28:31  

Yeah, appreciate it. And a couple just final like rapid fire questions for you around this idea of brand, right? Because this is something I think, I do think you do phenomenally well. In addition to all of these other elements, here, one question that I think probably a lot of the audience is is wondering, right, when the brand is built around your name, and I know you mentioned early on, right? That’s not necessarily why it ended up that way, right? You said, if your partner had a better-sounding last name, right? You guys would have run with that. When a new client gets signed, right, or somebody comes into the firm, and they’re working with a different attorney at the firm. Do you find any issues that come as a result of that, or is that a fear that doesn’t oftentimes show itself in reality?

Lee Rudin  29:19  

I’ll address it in two ways. First of all, of course, if the firm name is what people know and it’s your last name, there is going to be a limitation to what you can do. Potentially, if you decided down the road, decades later you wanted to exit right, if it’s based on your name, then you’re a focal player. What I’ve done here, I hope is to put the brand first and foremost, not my name. Because I don’t think people want to wear a shirt that says Rudin Law. I think they’ll wear a shirt that says, “Get rude.” I mean, honestly, I know it because I talk to people and they love it. And so put your name as the afterthought, and put your brand first. And we’re in a world now where your name doesn’t have to be your brand, you have a lot of these generic-sounding law firm names, and as long as they’re interesting and unique, they don’t have to be a personal name. And I think it can work, but to answer your question directly, I think you need to have people on your team that embody what the firm stands for, right? A lot of firms will talk about your core values, things like that. So I can’t have a pushover down the hall with a client. If our brand is “Get rude” and we are supposed to embody this tough, aggressive, like, We’ll do whatever it takes for you mindset. I can’t have a delicate flower down the hall, not saying, Don’t be kind, but that person also needs to embody the tough ethos, so understand that. And then also, don’t be an asshole, like if the client wants to talk to you or meet with you, make the time. It can’t just be when they pick up the phone and demand and talk to you, but you can find time in your calendar to talk to the client. That’s what this is about.

Will  31:03  

Get a little less rude at the right times.

Lee Rudin  31:05  

No, it’s not be rude. Will it’s get rude.

Will  31:09  

Do you find that there’s, do you lead more on the side of, you know, establish the brand where that you want to embody, and, you know, almost reverse engineer your way backwards, or do you find it maybe to be more effective to you know, look internally, understand what you have to work with, and then make sure that you’re pulling those levers?

Lee Rudin  31:29  

the ladder. It has to be authentic, and that’s with everything you’re talking about, social media, your presence on the Internet. yeah, whatever you do, it has to be authentic, because if you try to run someone else’s playbook, eventually that runway is going to run out. You can do it for so long, but if it’s not who you are, then you’re going to be revealed as a fraud and in some way. And so, you know, I’ve seen before, be who you are, and the most unique version of that, right? If you’re bored, a boring person, be uniquely boring. But you can’t try to be me. If you’re not me, and I wouldn’t try to be you, because it’s not going to come across well, particularly over time.

Will  32:14  

I agree. You can only fake it for so long. And then last question I’ve got for you, you know, I always like to talk a little bit of sports. The intro that we have on this podcast, you know, we like to pull some, you know, like walk-out sounding songs, like all that stuff. Are you a New Orleans sports guy?

Lee Rudin  32:32  

Well, I’m originally from New Jersey, so I’m actually a New York sports guy who has adopted the Saints as my secondary team. And I’ll say I adopt the Pelicans, but that’s really probably the least of my favorite sports, right?

Will  32:47  

No need to adapt. Are you Mets or the Giants?

Lee Rudin  32:51  

I’m a New York Rangers, New York Mets, Giants, and Knicks?

Will  32:58  

Yeah. So we got, like, the Knicks looking decent right now. We won’t talk about the Mets. We won’t talk about the Giant.

Lee Rudin  33:06  

There’s optimism with the Giants, and you know that that combo usually has the Yankees, not the Mets. But my family grew up in Brooklyn, so my grandfather, if you look beyond this computer screen, I’ve got a bunch of art from the Brooklyn Dodgers that’s blowing my grandfather, and then a couple of Mets shirts, like a guy got me a get rude Mets Jersey, and I did a “Get rude” Mets logo shirt that’s hanging over there. So it’s a bit of a hodgepodge, but we’re it aids in my character development to be a sports fan of these teams.

Will  33:38  

Well, if there’s ever a better, you know, I’m not sure there’s a better example out there of money doesn’t solve all your problems, like the Mets ownership, right?

Lee Rudin  33:48  

You can’t throw the money behind a bad brand and think it’s going to solve all your ills, right? The money will help, but it can’t do everything.

Will  33:59  

A good brand will build itself. Which reminds me of what I was, I was going to say when it comes to that brand. I also think that’s a big piece where the challenge that people face is thinking so much into it that they don’t make any sort of decision there. And you look at like a Nike, right? Nike is itself. There’s nothing about that name that was given off the jump, right? That’s mega, right? Like, just think that you imagine these days when you, when you picture Nike, is because of what they’ve built behind it to get itself.

Lee Rudin  34:31  

And think about it this way, the name Nike is, I mean, it’s innocuous. It doesn’t mean anything. Honestly, the swoosh is not a unique logo unto itself, but the message just do it is iconic. And so again, it doesn’t have to be that your firm name is the thing or that your logo is the thing. I think you should lean into both and make them as good as they can be. But maybe it’s just the message and you hit them over the head with the message. The message. Which is the message, and they can never forget it, and they know that the message is tied to that shitty firm name that you have.

Will  35:06  

Yeah, that’s something that Dave, Dave Vicknair and I bonded over. Both of our favorite books is Shoe Dog. Phil Knight’s autobiography. Fantastic book for anybody who hasn’t read that. Okay, before we jump, two final questions for you. First one is, I want a prediction for the New York Giants’ record this season. And then I want you to plug your socials, tell everybody where they can come find you, where they can connect with you, how they can, you know, contact you if they have a case, or whatever it may be to send your way.

Lee Rudin  35:37  

So we’re on an 18-game schedule, with a bye week. I think I’m going, I want to say 11 and six, but I’m gonna go 10 and 7.

Will  35:49  

11 and 6 and 10 and 7 are ambitious. 

Lee Rudin  35:51  

They are, but I think that the Giants have a pretty weak strength of schedule from just being terrible for so many years. Think that that will inert of their benefit, and I’m really optimistic that they’ve figured out the offensive line. They’ve got talent in a bunch of the skill positions, and the defense that they’re building is emblematic of those really good Super Bowl years where they’ve just got a ton of talent on the defensive line. And if you can protect the quarterback and create havoc for the other team’s quarterback, that’s how you win.

Will  36:20  

day. Bowl to Harbaugh. It cannot be stressed enough as well.

Lee Rudin  36:27  

Finally, after a decade or more of just heartache,

Will  36:32  

all it took was so you know, I’m a big DC sports fan, and for years and years and years, no matter how good we were, usually not very good, right? Or how good you all were, we would lose at least one, usually both games, to the Giants every single year. And that finally changed over the past couple of years, and that was enough to have the Giants go. We need to start.

Lee Rudin  36:53  

You know what would happen, right? We would, we would win the games at the end of the season, that don’t matter, and you’re kicking yourself. You’re like, Guys, just lose, lose. You get the number one pick. You can get a new quarterback. A new quarterback, or whatever it is. And, of course, all right, so social media, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube get rude. Law. Our website is getrude.com G, E, t, r, u, d, e.com, I’m Lee, lee@getrude.com, so if anyone has any questions they want to know something, message me on Instagram. Send me an email. We’ll find a time to chat, and then I’ve got that 800 number 833, get rude. 833-438-7833, if you’re on a pay phone, touch-tone phone, or whatever, now you can find us.

Will  37:40  

Boom, and I can’t stress enough, you know, if nothing else, a great connect on LinkedIn, right, like you post a bunch of cool stuff. Your posts share a lot of information, trial and error that you’ve had. I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to jump on and join me. And you know, I’m really excited for people to be able to listen to this. I think they’re going to be able to learn quite a bit.

Lee Rudin  38:02  

This is awesome. Will and I hope to see you. I’ve got a busy fall conference-wise. I’m sure we’re going to cross paths.

Will  38:07  

Where are you going?

Lee Rudin  38:08  

I’m speaking at the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing in August. I’m speaking at Law Di gras in October. I’m doing the back-to-back. I’m going Law Di Gras, and then I’m going right to Pimcon from there as an attendee this year, and then I’m speaking again at Lex Summit File Vine’s conference at the end of October. So busy couple of weeks, but hopefully I’ll see all my friends in the space and make some new ones and have some fun.

Will  38:35  

Yeah, I’ll definitely see it at Lex, probably see it at one or two other events throughout the year. I’m looking forward to it. I know you probably bring a lot of energy to the stage, which is always a nice change.

Lee Rudin  38:47  

Just try to have some fun out there. 

Will  38:50  

All right. 

Lee Rudin  38:51  

Thanks, Will appreciate you, man.