Seth & Dave Davies: Build Links, Build Businesses

BluShark Digital

Welcome to the SEO Insider with your host, Seth Price, founder of BluShark, taking you inside the world of legal marketing and all things digital.

Seth Price

Thrilled to have Dave Davies here. He's the co-founder of Beanstock Internet Marketing. Thank you for being here, Dave.

Dave Davies

Well, thank you very much for having me. It is, I've been looking forward to this.

Seth Price

Well, you know, excited to have you here. I miss being out at PubCon and getting to see you speak and talking in the halls. Tell me, we've missed the in person, what, where do you, what do you see right now, what's, what's exciting you in the internet space?

Dave Davies

It is just so constantly changing. When it comes- okay, exciting is a funny word right now because things like Gamestop is, is exciting to me, right, like in the, in the internet space and the fiasco with Robin Hood, but that doesn't have anything to do with internet market, really, other than the power that Reddit apparently has to market, and get, and get jobs done, which I think is a, was a, was a wake up call for for myself included, and going okay, there's more opportunities, maybe in different spots to impact big change. But to me, probably one of the most exciting things when I'm looking ahead, like just from, from a search digital marketing standpoint, was the rollout, or announcement, not rollout, the announcement of the algorithm Smith to sort of sit on top of the Bert algorithm that rolled out originally. And then the, not in and of itself, like algorithms aren't really a thing. But what that means for things like passage indexing with which listeners might be be more familiar with, but what it means to the passage indexing and the different ways that Google can now index content, which to me just means we as content producers can produce the right content in the right format, and trust the engines to sort of figure it out from there.

Seth Price

Let's break that down a little bit, you know, for people out there that are trying to figure out a content strategy, I play in the local space. And so we go very deep into silos of content, both by geography and by, by type of cases somebody might be looking for. Talk to me a little bit about that, as you see, as you see these algorithm changes and what Google is pushing us towards, what your advice is to people who are trying to create content to comply with where Google is pushing us?

Dave Davies

It can be a little difficult right now, because there's there's one big, big, big change, I'm anticipating it will be big, we haven't seen it roll out yet. But I'm anticipating that over the next year to two years, it'll be massive, which is passage indexing. But it was supposed to roll out in December of 2020. But it didn't, they, I guess technically weren't, weren't able to do that for whatever reason. So we're anticipating it rolling out here shortly. And what that basically will facilitate is a scenario where we can have long form content, divided into sections, and Google basically able to better understand a section and rank content based on that section. And I pictured something like Featured Snippets, if you click the top, and it'll just scroll you right to that to that block of content, or I don't know, maybe eventually they'll work with light boxes or something like that. But basically, if we combine that with another announcement that they recently had, and by they I mean Google, in the sort of subcategory indexing, which to me when they're talking about it, that means they're able to classify multiple pages and rank one piece of content based on what falls beneath it. And then at the same time, looking at passage indexing, which allows them to take a large piece of content, and then surface sections of that, it allows us as content producers to go, do I best serve my client, by creating clusters of pages that cover topics? Like a glossary, for example, would be, would be a simple, simple example. Or would this content better serve, be serving users to create a long form content divided into multiple sections, but go, I'm running a test with it with a piece on RankBrain and going, if somebody just wants the generic term, this long piece is going to do great if they're just putting in RankBrain as an algorithm. But what is or how do I optimize for, these are subsections in that section should be surfaced. So it'll be interesting to see how that, how that impacts once it does roll out.

Seth Price

Yeah, it's fascinating. We just, we debate this internally a lot. And while in our space, the, the skyscraper pages is the rage and getting the pages, you know, up from the 500 minimum to like 2000 or more, 2500 word pages? But a couple of questions to break in to sort of push on this, which is as, as an SEO, you have X amount of resources. So you have a decision, do you do one 2500 word page, or you do an 1000 word page with three supporting pages below it? And you start to sort of, you know, page count versus authoritative page. In a perfect world, it's both, but you have limited resources at some point. And as you get more granular, you can't make, you sort of you could do this, but then you would have hypothetically a fifth less pages by doing it this way. How do you balance the strengths and weaknesses of increased page count with a very specific topic, getting an additional title tag, you know, getting that more granular, supporting that page versus putting the resources in that mack daddy page?

Dave Davies

What I'm imagining, and again, with, with passage indexing, it hasn't rolled out yet, but understanding what Google's done similarly in the past, and reading their documentation on some of the related sort of patents and technologies, I'm imagining what we're going to see. And as soon as it rolls out, we'll know very quickly that we would be looking at things like heading tags to serve as titles, we'll be looking at our ability to craft a roughly 150 character, a little snippet right at the beginning, or well placed in understanding in this piece to serve as a description tag.

Seth Price

A sub description as a heading where you're going to be able to jump, which is sort of what we want right now, right? When you have those 2500 word pages, you'd love to have people be able to do that jump link, if you're linking into it directly to the point you want. And that's a whole 'nother thing. From the link perspective, are we getting pure link juice when we do that when we add those extra jumps within those links?

Dave Davies

Well, with that, now we're getting into a super fascinating area. And I love that you brought it up and I can't quite wrap my brain around how it works. I envision things like, like named anchors, right? They go and go back button, and they're still in use, but sort of going old school and going, okay, if I was jumping to the point on, how do I optimize for RankBrain? To use my previous example, That'd be a clear aspect of that, you'd go okay, the link to this page is actually talking about how do I optimize for, not the generic topic, whereas what you're talking about here is not, not the ability for Google to recognize that a link to a page will be a link to a page, as opposed to a link to a subset, which the multiple page clustering would allow for oh, okay, this person is interested in this aspect of this topic they're interested in, how do I optimize for this specific set, you know, page of content? I think that aspect will be fascinating, what it is relying on, and we'll soon see if they're as good as I think they are at it, but will be, how good are their natural language processing systems, how good is their understanding of the way content should be and then the relationship of the page linking, the context of that link, and then tying that into going, okay with their actually meaning is to link to this subset, so that maybe not even just in the indexing, but in the okay, if they link over to this page, it should surface two thirds down, it should be surfacing this, this format of the content.

Seth Price

You know, it brings to something that we struggle with internally, I'll take it from the legal perspective, and everybody has their own, their verticals they play in. But very often there are two, what I'll call money terms that we need to get for somebody. Let's take the criminal defense lawyer who has criminal and DUI, right, they each have lots of subsets under them. And as a somebody who does criminal with DUI in the practice, there are people that you're competing against that only do DUI hypothetically, and you're trying to get both. So when you describe those massive pages, one of the things that we sort of are frenetic about is the idea of including that second term in potentially a homepage with that, you know, versus having a standalone page that does nothing but that secondary term. The problem, and this is where the question to you comes, the issue that you sometimes find is, yes, you'd love to have that homepage, authoritative, built out page with that as one of them. But you don't want to confuse Google between that 2500 word page there and then the interior page when it could be, Hey, is this your page about the secondary topic? Or is it back at that primary page where you have all that information? We'd love your thoughts and wisdom on that.

Dave Davies

Yeah, that's, that's the constant battle in legal. Pick a subject, right? Like that's the constant battle we all face. I'm actually just dealing with that with a, with a client in machine learning. They build machine learning systems. And we're, the wrong, quote, unquote, the wrong page is ranking, right, like the page that we want to rank isn't the page that's being surfaced by Google. It is a difficult challenge. The way I tend to look at that, and works probably 80% of the time, and the other time, you got to build links. But about 80% of the time is running a sort of quick calculation. Sometimes you can do it anecdotally. Sometimes you actually need to build some spreadsheets and dive into the data, what is the user intent, not my user intent, and I try and remember this every single time and it's really, really hard. But Google doesn't really give a rat's butt what my user intent is, they don't really care what I want my user to do, when a user types in blue widgets, right? Or a user types in a legal term to go into into the sector, when they type in that term. Are they a high school student running, you know, trying to just write, you know, an essay, are they a university legal student, right, trying to get some good definitions and some examples? Or do they need help, right? Like, which one of these people are they? You want them to need help, right, like, or most of the clients, right? Like, and this is legal, any, any sectors like that, I want them to need what I have. But Google doesn't care if my needs are fulfilled, Google cares that their needs are fulfilled. So if the page that I want to rank, it ends up sort of causing some hiccups and problems, but it needs to be balanced, is I need to serve the majority of user intents, I need to be able to fulfill the largest array, I need that high school student to be satisfied, I need that university student to be satisfied, I need my clients to be satisfied, all of this being done in a way that doesn't distract my potential clients with a shiny thing, and then send them off into blog post land or something like that, right? You don't want them over there, you just want them to pick up the phone. Right? So it's a delicate balancing act of figuring out what fulfills user intent, and then the design challenge of going, okay, we need to maximize our probabilities of meeting user intent at least more than our competitors. It doesn't have to be every intent, just has to be more than them. It's like backlinks, I don't need as many as Wikipedia, I just need as many as Joe down the street, right? And then 10% more, exactly, just one more than him and I win, it's math. So that's, that's where the big challenge comes in. As I see it is making sure that we fulfilled more user intent and done it very clearly. Like, I like to think that Google's machine learning and natural language processing systems are good. They're better than I could build. But they're not great, right? Like they they really, like if you've ever used any of their API's, or anything, and most people haven't can take my word for it. They're really not that great, right? Like, they're not as good as we would like them to be. They're beyond anything the world has seen before, but they're not perfect. So, we do have to sort of spoon feed the algorithm and go, I need to make it really, really clear what these sections are, and that I am fulfilling this intent and this intent in that.

Seth Price

You know, one of the things I have asked a lot of our guests and gotten some great answers is, you know, seeing it conferences, you hear a lot of different people, you know, when you're when you're not on stage presenting, what are some of the biggest myths you think that are out there that people are chasing where they're sort of using precious resources where they probably don't need to be digging as deep?

Dave Davies

There's a there's a whole big array, and for anybody, you'll know him, but your listeners, some of them may not. Following John Mu, J-O-H-N-M-U on Twitter, that's John Mu, right, is a great way to find all the things that annoy me, because he works for Google. And he's sort of, among other things, a mythbuster for, for Google. There's no one individual thing that really irks me, it's the volume of distraction that SEOs tend to have. The latest one was just a technique for using sort of a button class in styles in JavaScript to create links to pages that didn't actually count as links. And John had to admit that yes, this is like, this is a way it's, it's PageRank crafting, right? If you know, if you look at a page, it has one sort of vote, I like to think of it. And if there's 10 links on that page, each one gets 10%, brutally oversimplified, as you know, but, but that's, that's what we can pass. If two of those use this button class, that PageRank would only be split among eight, right? So now more PageRank goes to these pages. I get it. I get the logic back in 2008. We were doing that with no-follow, right. Like it's, I understand it, but we've talked about like the time that we feel challenged. Where do I build this long form content? Do I build this this small cluster of pages? If we just focus on doing things like that, like going, okay, let's create maybe we just go long form and kind of a cluster but then we add video, then we add like infographics, so we're just serving more content needs for different people, that's going to far exceed all these little distractions that we find ourselves chasing down these little tricks that are probably worked for maybe a year and probably not accomplished nearly what we want. And I commented that on Twitter and John was like basically, yes, I can't remember his exact wording. But yeah.

Seth Price

You know, one of the things that's interesting here, you've plugged it in as anybody, do you find historically and, and now through the present day, that you are getting straight answers from Google, or are they telling you what they want you to do, despite what may or may not actually be moving the needle?

Dave Davies

That's, that's a great question. They do tend to not answer if they don't want to. So which, which I appreciate. I mean, I understand that every time they say something, there's like a million SEOs, I'll look into figure out how can I abuse that, I'm one of them, right? Like, if they say something, and I can use it for my clients benefit, I'm going to, that's why they, why they talk. You know, the current breed, we can compare this with, say, Matt Cutts of like, you know, a few years back, um, he did very polished videos, they were always spot on, right? They always gave great advice. But that's, they were there polished videos, he did like once a week or something like that. Now, we've got John doing rapid fire on Twitter or, you know, the those Martin, you know, great example, as well in sort of more the JavaScript and indexing space. I don't think they lie, but they, nor do I think they want to, I have seen them be wrong. But they answer off the cuff. I'm wrong when I'm asked questions off the cuff, too. And so I think when they do it, it can be more damaging. But I think it's as we listen, we need to be really aware that I'm asking John something he might not know. And the reporters are probably going to take his words out of context to make a great title. Right? So there's just sort of like a cluster of misinformation that can happen there.

Seth Price

Right. But I also like, look at the early days of COVID, with some of the leading thought leaders that don't wear a mask where, and my take was they were trying to protect masks to get to the hospitals, when that was very, very early on before people said you can make a cloth mask. And so I'm always, you always feel like yes, I'm, I'm listening to it, you take it seriously. But then you're like, you know, you're like, okay, is there an ulterior motive for what we're getting? Because they're trying to push behavior a certain way? Versus yes, they actually know what's inside the algorithm. And they're trying to, you know, help, you know, get you there, or prevent you from doing stuff. How much of it is, because as you just said a moment ago, as people take what they're saying to an extreme, it can drive behavior and can push things too far in one direction, which may not be what they want, either.

Dave Davies

Well, you know, we're talking, we're in a perfect space to be, to be talking about this. We're in the legal space here right now, right? We're talking legal, so the entire audience can really think of themselves and how they're making an argument when, when asked a question, and in general, my father and sister are both lawyers. So I've learned that this is the way this goes as well, is you answer as strictly right as you possibly can, you do not lie. But that doesn't mean you need to volunteer more information than you're specifically being asked for. And that's how I try and view everything that they're saying is strictly they, nine times out of 10 unless it's an accident, will not be lying. But that doesn't mean they're answering the question to its full intent, it means they're being technically correct in their answer. And they're also needing to cover not just what was that question, but what was the breadth of questions that could be involved around that question, right? So they're trying to add it to a much broader, but I think more often I, every time, they're saying something, I'm going okay, well, what aren't you saying? What did you omit from this answer that could probably-

Seth Price

Which is where you start to sort of like almost like a Talmudic scholar trying to parse the words as to what is really meant, and that's that, then it just, your, your head starts to explode. You know, we spent a good amount of time here talking about content, let's, let's put our last, last remaining minutes, talk to me about links. Where you know, what your, your thoughts are these days? What excites you? Where do you, where do you, where, where are you spending your time and attention?

Dave Davies

Links is a funny one, because like when we tie into the word exciting, because I think very, very rarely in link building, do we go, that's exciting. But basically, the core process that we tend to be firing down now and it's because it is successful is and we're talking about content, but we'll circle back a little bit to it is not sort of forcing my way through as I would have say, a decade ago going okay, I need to jam in links to page X, because page X needs to rank but rather stepping back and going, what are people in this sector writing about? What are people in this sector linking to, right? They go into hrefs, or majestic or whatever your favorite link building tool and pull out what topics Buzzsumo another great source, right? Like, just go in there and go what are people sharing socially? What are people linking to, and then build that content better? And then do outreach right, like so rather than trying to link build to something which can be incredibly difficult. Build the thing people will link to, make sure you're building to get it into a structure that it's like going to funnel its page rank through well, to where you're actually trying to get your rankings because it's probably not a resource page. You know, and then sort of clustered in there. I know we've got a lot of clients and travel, and it's like, okay, let's build like big guide areas into this specific town and in this specific town, but make sure that it's pushing its way up really, really quickly, it's a lot easier to build links, just to some quick outreach, it's easy to get like that, that the, the restaurants you're referencing, to reference your review of them in this guide area, right? Just trying to keep things as simple as possible. And if you ask Google, all link building is artificial, well, okay, fine, but this isn't Field of Dreams, and you can't just build it, and they will come, right. Like, I can't just build great content and go, "Google will surface that and lots of links will happen". No, you need to do outreach for these things.

Seth Price

well, the, the ugly term is link building, the digital PR is, that's, that's and I guess it was just referenced recently, which essentially, is what we're doing, as you see, what was old school PR, you know, the, the kinder gentler way of talking about link building is how can you, you know, give people a reason, an opportunity to link in, and even if you are doing stuff that is closer towards middle ground, the idea is if it's from relevant places that make sense, you're you're, you know, so much better off than the sort of older school just, you know, as a, as a scattershot, hoping that there's a line following you back from some other place.

Dave Davies

Well, in Indeed, indeed. I mean, you look at I mean, and rightfully so, like, paid guest posting. I mean, it's just been like over abused. And it's, it can be a bit of a train wreck, right? We all get those lists. In our email, I'm sure all of your life was like this list of like, here's all the sites you can buy stuff on. Okay, well, Google gets that list too. Let's say that we all do. So okay, if it's on that list, just ignore it out of the gate. But that doesn't mean that guest blogging is like going out, there's tons of sites that will accept your great content.

Seth Price

Matt Cutts had a great video on that back in the day, because remember, there was a whole, "that's really spammy", and they said no, cut it out. He's like, No, it's not the guest blogging is bad. It's guest blogging, that's, that sort of paid artificial versus stuff that is relevant and contextual.

Dave Davies

Well, indeed, I mean, I know when I, when I was first starting this company, we obviously didn't rank. Because I just started a company, we got all of our traffic, all of our business was coming from guest posting on like, you know, some sort of industry site. So just by itself it lends value, I try every time I'm building a link to basically go can I expect traffic? If I can honestly, honestly say yes, I would expect some targeted traffic that I would want. It's probably a good link, right? I guess.

Seth Price

Well, the, the, I'm gonna ask you this, which is, very often the places that are going to get you the best traffic have the no, no-follow links coming in. What's your feeling and allocation of resources when you know you, how much weight do you put on authority coming from that? There's been a you know, as far as you know, the places that are going to get you the best traffic that are great authoritative links very often don't give you the follow juice, you know, how do you put that into your whole rubric of link building?

Dave Davies

Yeah, that's, that's a really, really great question. I mean, having a nice balance of sort of strong no-follow links, I just, it has to look natural. I wouldn't necessarily chase most of them. There are exceptions, right? Okay, if the traffic is worth my time. But that's a completely different conversation, we're just talking about link building, right? That's just talking about true digital PR. But included in that is the value of being able to go and we wrote here, right? If you get your client a mention in People Magazine, to be able to go into the next link opportunity and go, we're covered on, you know, entrepreneur recovered on people were covered here, here, here and here. Immediately, that boosts your authority and your success rate shows, in the ones that you actually do want for SEO value. So you're sort of making your life easier, it's like building that great resource content isn't building a link, but it sure made it easier to bang them out later. So we can get, get more done later. So it still has that same or an equivalent link value if you've done it right.

Seth Price

You know, I'd love to sort of conclude just finding out from you some of the lessons you've learned building an agency, you know, a lot of agency owners watching this and would love to see sort of like, your thoughts, you know, you've pivoted obviously during, during COVID. But what are some of the things you've seen as you've scaled your agency? What are some of the lessons learned along the way?

Dave Davies

Scaling is hard, right? Like, just like, just like starting from, from, from zero, probably the number one rule and I've learned this the hard way, and then have now fortunately, having learned it the hard way. You know, everybody, well, not everybody maybe but I was bootstrapping when I started so, saving upfront seemed like a really good idea and taking on too much myself seemed like a good idea, that it wasn't. And that ends up costing. So hiring right but hiring somebody, basically hire somebody who's smarter than you to do, I mean, not at everything, right? Like I consider myself quite bright. But hiring those, those smart people to do the job, they don't have to be somebody can train just pay a little extra to hire people who can think of things you're not thinking of, so that the reliance is no longer on you. Because as long as you're hiring people, you have to train constantly, then you're never free to build your company, right? Like so because you'll constantly be babysitting and training and apologizing and then fixing, rather than just going, okay, I'm paying a little extra, but now I can grow my company instead of instead of, you know, repairing and apologizing to clients for work that wasn't up to the standard, I would put it out.

Seth Price

Right? Because when you start if you as you're touching most things that it is, you know, you know what you're doing, you're great at what you do, you're, you know, you're very good at it. What are some of the lessons learned in the scaling as you get further away from the sausage making and maybe at the top of a pyramid? What are some of the things you wish you knew, you know, now that you could, you know, could would have liked to implement earlier?

Dave Davies

I would hire and find and pay it's copy is really the probably one of the biggest area, the other areas are so easily measured. Like a lot of the where you can just go okay, I can spot check a few things and just know that everything is going well. I am the first to admit it. I'm not a strong copywriter, right, I can write about SEO kind of stuff. But this is not my thing. I'm not I don't do design, I don't do copy, neither of those things particularly well, I can optimize copy, but I can't write it. And finding the right, finding and paying appropriately the right people in that space, for me, was what it was. But as a general rule, it's find what you don't do, admit it to yourself, be honest with yourself about what you don't do well, and then find somebody who does that far better than you can at the caliber of what you do best. Find somebody who can do that, those things that you can't do well. Find somebody that does what you do best at the same caliber you do and your clients will be happy.

Seth Price

You know, we've made the move from, you know, in house townhouse culture with 50 millennials, to a fully, you know, forced overnight into a virtual world, which we really have enjoyed. Not so much the agency, but my law firm, there's a division that the drama level has dropped, productivity has gone up, there are certain benefits, I don't know how long it's gonna last. But that, talk to me a little bit about that, that for your purposes, your thoughts on keeping things centralized, where you have that sort of serendipity of conversation, versus a fully virtual world.

Dave Davies

You know, it's interesting, because I'm in a smaller city. We've only got a quarter of a million people in the city I'm in. So we had already done that about five years back, I was just like, the talent pool where I am, is not robust enough. So by the time COVID hit, it did not, we had already worked through the growing pains of that transition and, and already worked through my difficulty in going, they cannot be sitting next to you and still work hard. Like it, which all of us have.

Seth Price

That's like the logical part. But there's a cultural component. And part of its age, like as I get older, I literally can't speak to many of our employees. I have some brilliant people that are very good at talking to them. But I have a select group, and that way if I can only infect a small number of people with my insanity. And that, the thing that I am curious for people who are ahead of the curve, who have done this for longer is, what are some of the touch points you've implemented to keep culture alive while people are sitting in their bedrooms working very hard, assuming you get over that. And you know, you can tech, you have KPIs, you know what they're doing, but it's great. Now they're working hard, but how do you keep a company culture when people are all spread out?

Dave Davies

Gotcha. Yeah, that part is incredibly difficult, like incredibly difficult. The number one way that I've found things is first off, one is actually just, like trusting that people will just have their own lives, right, like and that, and that part is good and making sure that they're also introduced to our same circles like I have sort of wider circles that were part of of groups on and making sure that the people that should be are involved in those groupings. It's not even my company culture, but these are my friends and peers and these are, these, we're all communicating about it. But depending on on this specific person, for example, I have a, an assistant. Her and I chat three times a week, like eight o'clock in the morning, starting our day, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we have a chat because I need to make sure that she's well acquainted. With the rest of the team, I make sure to meet with at least heads up, like I meet with the the head of paid search once a week just to have a chat. But not just to talk about what's going on, right, like as far as technically, but also just to make sure that things are going good because he's responsible for the paid search team, right, and making sure that all of them are warm and fuzzy. Yeah, to sort of, you know, candy coat it, and does a great job, and our turnover rate is low, so I know so I guess maybe in part to me, it was making sure I was hiring personable people that I get along with, and then trusting that they will continue to get along with the people that I'm not talking to as regularly. I try and touch base with everybody regularly enough. But I'm not talking to our paid search team, once a week, but I'm talking to the head of the paid search once a week and sort of making sure that that culture, my communication with him is going well. And does seem to cascade down. Now, what would I do if I hit a problem? I don't I can, I'll let you know if that happens. We can have that as a as a tail for another another day.

Seth Price

No, it makes me smile, because our president who's amazing and dealing with managing well well beyond his years, we created sort of a a forced happy hour, we just have real happy hour. So the keg in the office. And now, now it is a, now it's paid, we do an hour of paid Happy Hour every Friday that, you know, it's, that way, It's not like, it's not after work. What else would you put like, that's part of the work week is an hour of socialization above and beyond anything you want to do outside of the office. That's been an interesting experiment, I think, done pretty well.

Dave Davies

You know what, I might actually adopt that. I like that, as soon as you said it, I'm like, that's a good idea, we, I actually do a happy hour with with some of my peers, and you're making me think, okay, that's, that's-

Seth Price

It's another psychological thing, because you're losing an hour of productivity in theory. But, you know, it's a question of like, does that build that much more of an esprit de corps, that it's a serendipity that I miss from the in office, you know, both good and bad, see, where if somebody is stumbling, there are certain stuff that if you walk into the room and you see body language, you know something is wrong, you've lost that in the new normal, you've already lost it ahead of time. The other thing that's in, I'll sort of conclude with this, which is one of we've talked before we came on air was one of the benefits of doing this show is that it is the equivalent of what you just mentioned, which is a way of connecting a bunch of people sitting doing their jobs for us with incredible thought leaders like yourself, who otherwise they would have no real access to other than maybe a formal presentation. So I feel like this has been one of the sort of fun benefits that I didn't realize that the audience not only would be outsiders who would you know, the shared content is always good. And as the game that we're in, we spent half of our presentation here talking about great, creating great content, but that the internal benefits of people getting that conversation off the cuff, almost in a serendipity way where the conversation is taking left and rights, really has turned out to be one of the more interesting things that has come out of this, this experiment here with the SEO Insider.

Dave Davies

Indeed, well, I mean, you bring up some interesting points, because there are parts when I, it's sounding like you're there, I'm there, where there's aspects of what we've encountered in 2020. And now into 2021, that I don't want to go back, right? Like we're doing a lot, I'm having a lot more zoom chats, I'm doing a lot more like you know, chatting with, with folks like you and sort of like, okay, we're having like a pleasant chat and getting that chance to interact, where I didn't have to fly to Vegas or Miami to do it, right? But I want to get that back, too. But-

Seth Price

I see, I see the tags behind you. You got to keep that going.

Dave Davies

Yeah, exactly. And they're a lot of fun. And it's good to like, actually sit and have a drink with your friends.

Seth Price

And there's nothing better in my opinion, but we don't, but you can scale it away at a number that you can't do going to Vegas where you get whoever's in front of you. And that's magical. But you're able to do things if you force yourself to hear, and it's a, hopefully we get the best of both worlds sooner rather than later.

Dave Davies

Indeed, I look forward to sitting down and actually having a real beer with you. Not a Zoom, Zoom Happy Hour.

Seth Price

Dave, thank you so much for your time. Can't wait to see you back in Vegas.

Dave Davies

All right. Talk to you soon.

BluShark Digital

Thank you for tuning in to the SEO Insider with Seth Price. Be sure to check back next week for fresh insights into building your brand's online presence. Episodes are available to stream directly on BluShark Digital's website.