BluShark Digital
Welcome to the SEO Insider with your host, Seth Price, founder of BluShark, taking you inside the world of legal marketing and all things digital.
Seth Price
Welcome, welcome, welcome. We are thrilled to have Adam Warren, the founder of OpenJar Concepts and The Sentinel Group. Welcome, Adam.
Adam Warren
Thank you, glad to be here.
Seth Price
I want to start because I've always followed the work of The Sentinel Group and have seen some of the remarkable results you've had for individual lawyers and law firms that I'm buddies with. Explain for those listening and watching, talk to me about the relationship between OpenJar Concepts and The Sentinel Group.
Adam Warren
So the company was founded by myself and Reno Ronaldo in 2009. Actually 9/9/2009 is our launch date. And at that time it, and it still is, it's OpenJar Concepts, that's the company, that's the full-service agency. OpenJar Concepts works heavy in legal marketing, but we also do other verticals too. We're in health and life insurance, auto insurance, remorse mortgage, we've done student debt, we work with other types of brands. There came a point after our, I believe, our third year, so in 2012, where we were heavy in lead aggregation on a lot of different torts and Reno and I have been working in torts since I want to say 2006, at least, where a lot of law firms wanted to get into a national campaign, but didn't necessarily want their branding on the front of all of this tort marketing, class action marketing. So we created a brand called The Sentinel Group, which is now synonymous with legal marketing, and it's on the air, in digital, wherever, 52 weeks a year, and it has been since we launched this. And what happened is, Seth, that it started taking on a life of its own. And I had our business development people coming to me and saying, "Hey, we need to, when we go to a legal conference, we need to be there as The Sentinel Group. That's how people are starting to recognize us." And I have to tell you, I had a lot of trepidation about it then, I resisted it for a while. And then I finally gave in. What we've been doing now though, for the last few years, is wrestling those two brands back together, so people are very clear. OpenJar Concepts is the company, The Sentinel Group is our legal marketing brand, typically used on a national level. And it's the company's, what we would consider, our legal marketing division focus. So that's, that's, that's the story.
Seth Price
Gotcha. So you know, the thing that I've seen from afar that you seem to have done particularly well at in a very crowded space, has been mass tort case acquisition for firms. People that are like, "Okay, we have budget, and we have, we have a desire to do this efficiently." Talk to me a little about building the machine that has allowed you to, you know, play with some of the biggest players in the space.
Adam Warren
Well, it starts with, you know, Reno and I were mainly focused on doing this for TV-only. Back years before OpenJar, when we were doing things like SJS or Fen/Phen and Vioxx, where we began learning about, you know, law firms having a contract goal, which if you think about advertising in general, everyone's got a goal. And for so long, we had the power of TV pushing the wind at our backs. But things really began to change, and we had to take a vested interest in understanding the whole intake process and what was important there. We had to begin expanding into other media types like radio, and then we did about, I want to say four years of research and development on digital before we figured out how to make digital such a large component of the delivery. Today, we really don't launch campaigns that are not multimedia in nature. It is very, very difficult for one type of media to carry the weight of an entire campaign and the hunger of what this industry is looking for, which is becoming almost insatiable. So it was a matter of us just saying listen, there's a media piece to this, there's a goal piece to this, there's the right intake partner, and you know, look, not all intake is created equal for a variety of reasons. Some, some intake might be good at live calls, some might be good at data, maybe some are good at both. But you have a volume capacity issue. So there's all kinds of things that we have to consider. And then the last piece of this was, okay, so we have this goal, how do we control it, right? So we came up with ways to help keep things from getting out of control. Let's say you've got a campaign and the cost per contract range is 2000 to 2500. Well, we had to look at and say, "Okay, well, what happens when that range goes to 3000?" And so we created different ways to basically give back to the campaign, to get the contract under control, what we would call a make-good program, to get it under control. And reporting became very important. We have a report called The Accountability Report, meaning we want to be held accountable, we want to be transparent to our clients, and we generate those reports two to three times per week. Not all of them go to the client every single time, but it helps us internally to understand what's happening with the campaign in real time, so we can manage it better. And it helps the client understand that, hey, we're watching this, we're counting your numbers, we see where you're going. And that's, that's really how we've been able to take on I would say the level of clientele that we're taking on and produce the volume that we are while keeping contract costs highly competitive.
Seth Price
Are you doing intake yourself? Or do you use many of the high tier intake providers that are out there?
Adam Warren
We do not do the intake, we do not touch the calls. All calls, all data goes into a top tier intake partner that we will, you know, align with at the beginning of the campaign. And I, we personally like you know, separation.
Seth Price
No, understood, because I, look, as a, I wear a couple hats, right? My law firm, I feel like intake is two steps forward, one step back. My digital agency touches 250 law firms nationwide, and the great, the, I get and respect why you handle it this way. We are having internal discussions about whether, particularly for paid search campaigns, we should require an intake service to be used. Because what we are seeing is the agency of record will end up and taking the brunt for a defective intake group, which is frankly, probably more often than not. Knowing, you know, I think of myself as learned, I associate with the best leading thought leaders in the industry, but keeping that going. So basically everything you do prices in third-party professional intake, that delivers the, the cases to, to the law firms, there's, there's not the law firms, what hap-- What do you do when a law firm raises their hand, say that we can do intake, send us the calls? Is that even on the table? Or is that not something guys do?
Adam Warren
Well, we do hear that. And there are a few firms, you know, the powerhouse firms that have been doing this for awhile that have invested in the intake. And so we're comfortable with that. You know, I think I heard, to your point, listen, when things are going great, we don't get much credit and when things are going not great, we get all the blame. And they're, you know, as the agency, which is what we consider ourselves first and foremost, is a full service advertising agency. As the agency, when we deliver our information, we do it in two ways. One, here's the cost of your contract range from a media perspective, only. Then we have a second row that says "and here it is with intake." And so it gives us the ability to kind of show the client both ways, like A. that, you know, maybe...
Seth Price
It sounds like a lot, but when you see it as a percentage of your media, it's really not as much.
Adam Warren
It's really not. That's why we I think we've got some favored nation negotiations that we've done with our intake, but based on the years of working together and the volume that we tend to send them is, you can see like A) it's it's really not that bad, when you consider how much it costs. The bulk of the case upfront acquisition is going to be on the media side. So then you've really got to try and align with a partner that's going to be fair to you on the intake side
Seth Price
On the intake side, sorry, what I was trying to pivot to, was the percentage of work you guys do on mass torts versus single event?
Adam Warren
It's, it's really, I would say it's, at one point, it may have been 80%. But over the last year plus, it's starting to equal out a little bit. I mean, look, we do a lot of mass tort work. But the work that's going in on the local side, which I really enjoy, because it gives me more ability to connect with the campaign and the client creatively. That is taking off. And the amount of money that's not just going into personal event, but, and medical malpractice, let's say, which we do considerable amount of, it's now starting to move into other extreme weather events, for example, where tons and tons of money is going into fighting with insurance companies. So that's been something that's really taken off, and it's, it's becoming a pretty big driver against the revenue that we're doing in the mass tort side.
Seth Price
Gotcha. So in doing that, what do you see, what is working? You know, in the mass tort space, the playbook seems more clear. TV, and as that died a little bit to radio, you, you layered in paid social. What are you guys seeing working on the single event side?
Adam Warren
We have an approach that I think we, you know, we tend to call our, our hybrid fusion of, of media, because we'll always include TV and radio on the local side. It's still too powerful to ignore. But I will, I'm one of those guys who still wants to see them do out of home. We tend to do a fair amount of billboard work. Now I'm very upfront about what I think a billboard is, or what I think a rideshare repped car is. I think those are brand supporters, those are message supporters. You shouldn't expect you're going to get the same amount of calls from a billboard no matter what you do to it, as you're going to be as a television spot. But what I do believe is, if it takes a consumer or potential plaintiff climate, three to six times to see a commercial before they were they will act, what if that billboard removes that number by 1x, or 2x? Is it worth it? And our belief is yes, because we're trying to create familiarity and memorization and engagement with these callers, or these people who are going to go online to the lander and submit a form fill. And we're trying to accelerate the period of time for which that happens is, happens in, so we can get higher volume, and spend less money doing it. And I'm a very, very big advocate of this. We will also do social media, and try to create really compelling, you know, freeze you in your, in your scroll type of ads, we put a lot into that. And other things that, you know, if it makes sense, we're getting ready to do a campaign that's such a finite amount of people we're trying to reach in a very tiny town, we're doing nothing but print and SEM. So we have to kind of look at every campaign, but it's, there's yet to be a campaign we are doing in a local market, where it's just one type of focus. There is going to be a campaign, I am going to start that way, coming up here soon. But instead of just buying spots on air, for the radio, you know, where it just airs, amongst other commercials, we're doing very targeted DJ routes. So that will evolve, however, into other types of media. But for the most part, if you're getting into the local level, you've got to figure out how many different ways you can touch your your person that you're trying to reach and get in their soul. Because, as I, as I commonly will tell attorneys, and I'm sure they all understand this, if we're not talking about a mass tort, and we're talking about personal injury, let's say, when they actually start seeing your commercials is a good chance they don't need you yet. But what we're trying to do is get them to think about you when they do, and that's exactly what brands are doing every day to us, right? Whether it's a food company like McDonald's, or Carl's Jr. or TGI Fridays. "Hey, I don't know if you're coming in tonight, Seth, but when you're hungry, think about TGI Fridays." Yhe same thing for person, personal injury.
Seth Price
Gotcha. Well, and we're seeing that right? The big, the biggest players, the Morgans, are doing that. They're becoming a point. I could tell when my kids know a brand, you know, that becomes, I'm like, okay, somebody is spending enough money to get that out there. The debate that I have internally is we represent a lot of people where their budgets are not going to make them a household name. And so the question becomes, and again, depending on size of market and what the competition is, etc, but I, there's a lot of people that advocate brand brand brand. And there's a lot of people in social right now, speaking to other legendary people in the, in the digital space, there's some that say, "Hey, I won't use paid social in the single event space, because I don't see the ROI." Now you're saying something different. You're saying you're doing TV and have, you're building, you're creating it. But is there almost a minimum buy in on single event before your structure works? Because from where I sit, if you don't have some sort of a beachhead, and you put a billboard up, it's not going to resonate the same way as if you're reinforcing. If Fridays puts an ad on, you know, if, you know Tuesdays puts an ad on, and you don't, you haven't heard of it before, it's not going to move you the same way, as Friday's where you've seen this ad over and over. And it's just adding to that mental piece that's going to push you over the edge on Friday, when you want to decide where to go. Is there a point where brand works? Cuz in my world, it's been such focused on search, where at the time, spend your influence and money on the time when something happens, be there. Not that this doesn't work as a benefit when you do have a brand, BluShark has clients that are big TV players. They do it, somebody does a search. and is there a competitive advantage there? Because they're like, oh, here are three names. I've heard of this one before. So with a double whammy, but is there a point where you have to get over before it really makes economic sense to go all in on brand?
Adam Warren
I think that if you are a firm in a local market, you have to first be aware of what you need to overcome, which is the local market biggest spenders, the Morgan and Morgan's that are coming into your market. And what your most, you know, strategic response is going to be. I've spent, I've been starting to spend a lot of time that, since we're on the subject, of talking about the power of the branding. And for attorneys, where I'm focusing this energy, it has a lot to do with market connection and the story you tell. And whether or not that's a big expensive production or a lower cost production, how you connect yourself to your market is just about everything. So a lot of law firms think that it's all about money and repetition. And I would argue that to some degree, because, to my point of when you see a law firm commercial, that's probably not yet the time, in most cases, when you need it. Therefore, if you put all of your money on the media, and next to no money on the content that these people are going to see, the chances are that if when the person finally needs you, and you look like every other commercial in the market, they're gonna call the first one they see because they can no longer tell the difference. And there is definitely market saturation that goes on with lawyer, lawyer, lawyer, lawyer spots all over the place, so how do you remember? To me, it's all about the storytelling. I would rather see law firms invest more in a really good commercial to establish that brand and lay down the gauntlet, and spend less in media, because I believe the memorization is going to happen in less time and in less clearances through quality, quality content that can then carry its way through continuity into everything else you're doing big or small. So...
Seth Price
I mean, I, look, respect that, that what you're saying and I get it, which is, look, it sounds like at one level you didn't say this, you could spend your way to repetition and brand recognition but that's very inefficient. But that if you have a meaningful connection and, look, I struggle this myself with my with my firm Price Benowitz. We want to be a legitimate suited authoritative law firm. And you see people that have some sort of personal connection, whether it be local athletes, whether it be stories with their parents, something that's personal, then it sounds like you can spend a heck of a lot less because you could enter the market with a meaningful message and not one that you literally, through brute force have to embed in somebody's mind.
Adam Warren
Right? You know, look, we're, when you're talking about a firm that has endless budget, I've seen them do both. They not only come up with compelling content, but they smash you over the head with it, in terms of the amount of sheer media that they acquire. But if we're talking about firms that are somewhere in the middle, or starting to get their legs, you're not going to be able to compete dollar for dollar. So you have to find another way.
Seth Price
It's like the, uh, Dollar Shave Club, right? They, they took like, one stupid ad, but was compelling as all, as all heck, and turned that into a $4 billion exit. Meaning it wasn't about the media spend, it was about creating that me-- which again, easier said than done, Adam, right? I mean, what makes you guys ,you know, it's the, what you're saying is spend more effort on crafting a message that resonates rather than just saying it's me, too, I'm a lawyer, call me.
Adam Warren
Yes. And you know, look, there's, there are the standard story where you have the lawyer, the bookcase, he's, he's dead serious and pounding his fist on the desk, we've seen that. I've also seen great spots where, you know, maybe they didn't have a lot of money, for money, for media, maybe they didn't have a lot for creative, but they came up with a jingle and the jingle was so quirky. To your point, I've heard my kids singing lawfirm jingles. So it doesn't mean every commercial has to look like an Academy Award production. It just needs to be something that connects you and creates a moment of memory. Because the person is going to sit back and say, "Oh, that's who I want to call when I need that person." And the rest becomes noise.
Seth Price
Well, but I'll also say something, you know, again, and I agree with you, I think it's genius, what you're saying, but to the counterpoint, which is just repetition, to a certain extent what started our conversation we could sort of almost conclude with, which is, you know, Sentinel Group. I hear it enough that it becomes such a brand everyone brought and had to rebrand. And they came out with that brand. And I'm like, It's a stupid name, who's gonna remember this, and you say it enough times now it's Sentinal abroad, and it's a name that you would hear. I saw this myself, when I, when I launched, I launched my digital agency, it was BluSpark, and we had an IP issue. And I was like, oh, shit, what do we do now? And first lawyer said you could pay me $80,000, then change it. I'm like, that's a terrible answer. I went to the second one. So like, I was, I was like, at a Sharks game against the Caps. And we're like, "Okay, well, we'll be BluShark." And I cringed for the first month or two, whenever somebody said the name, but it's one of those things that if it gets into the, into the, into that place in the memory, it becomes brand. I just struggle with, what you're saying is you can cut down on the expense curve with a meaningful, connected message. It's still not nothing. I think that that's, you can, you very often deal with the upper end of the legal marketing spectrum. What I see people at the medium to lower end struggle with is brand brand brand. And I'm not convinced that without a, didn't quite get that answer out of you, even with the best possible jingle. I mean, again, you had paid dirt, like $1 Shave Club, great, but that's harder to do in legal. Is there a minimum spend, I'm asking you to crowdsource, before brand is meaningful. Because I see people with nominal budgets talk that way, and I see them pissing away opportunity to, I see that unless you can get the point to, you know, that name, that the brand is almost like going through a sieve, and that you're not going to retain it.
Adam Warren
So the thing to me, that I will also push, look, if if someone comes to me and says, I have a $20,000 monthly budget for my market. Okay, you know, we'll find a way to get that thing off the ground. And what I'll say to them is "Listen, how long have you want to be on the air?" Well, I can either, I've got, I've got, 60 grand, let's say, so I can either spend 20,000, and I'm being hypothetical, but I have encountered things like this. I've got 60,000, I could spend it in two months, I could spend it in a month or three months. Well, my answer would be three months, because I would rather you slow drip into the market consistently than pound and disappear. And I have people who want to get on the air off the air on the air off there, that is not a good strategy for creating sticky stickiness with you in that market. So even if you don't have a lot, take what you've got and stretch it to keep that going for as long as possible. Look, if you've got $20,000 a month for 12 months, it's going to resonate. And then let's make sure...
Seth Price
Just a clarifying question. If, let's say it's 20, and you're in a market where you're you wouldn't be in the top 10 spending 20, hypothetically. Do you ever say, "You know what, we're not going to win everything. We're going to win sports, talk radio, and we'll go, we'll just do sports, or we'll just do you know, some segment" is, did you ever say we're gonna give up on this, but we're gonna go after this Hispanic audience, African American, the late night. Do you ever take it and say we can't win a market, but we can win this segment?
Adam Warren
Yes. And the way we'll do that, is we'll move around. So I might say, "Hey, we're gonna start with this sports and news. But then I want to move over here and see how it goes in entertainment, and, you know, daytime soap." I want to try to look throughout the market where the story we tell particularly does resonate. If you have 20,000 a month, I can't, let's say there's six broadcast stations in the market, I can't go to all six. I'd be giving them such a negligible amount, two people per day would see it. So your, to your point, yes, we have an issue that isn't getting better, it's only getting worse, and it's been going on for a decade now. And that's fragmentation. And that's why, you know, we have to try and go where we think viewers are going to be. And also to the smaller firms who are investing less, right now they're not ready for the same windfall of cases that a much bigger firm can get. So we've got to just give them enough to subsidize the cost of marketing, be able to receive enough windfall to keep running their firms, and then grow and grow and grow and grow. It is so much like watering a plant. You're just gonna have to start with seeds, and then look for the sprout. But that takes time and it takes longevity and message.
Seth Price
Well, Adam, this is awesome. I really appreciate your time. And I assume we'll see you out at MTNP?
Adam Warren
I will be there. Smiling away.
Seth Price
Awesome, really looking forward to it. All the best.
Adam Warren
Thank you, Seth. This was fun. I appreciate it.
BluShark Digital
Thank you for tuning in to the SEO Insider with Seth Price. Be sure to check back next week for fresh insights into building your brand's online presence. Episodes are available to stream directly on BluShark Digital's website.
