Join Seth and Jay as they discuss when to counter a departing employee’s offer and how to calculate it. People are starting to look for new places to work more and more, and they speak as business owners about when they respond to this ongoing issue. Younger generations are spending less and less time at the same job, so hiring new people, training them and replacing the employee is an entire process. This begs the questions, when is it worth it to replace and retrain an employee? With more and more employees opting to work virtually, there is a difference in opportunities and continued growth for employees. Employees often move when their pay is different than market or if they feel undervalued. It’s important to keep employees happy by listening to their needs and increasing pay at a rate that makes sense for their new trainings and skills as their value increases in your company.
Hello, hello, and welcome to another edition of Maximum Growth Live. I’m one of your hosts, Jay Ruane, CEO of FirmFlex, your social media marketing funnels for lawyers’ firm, as well as managing partner of Ruane Attorneys, a civil rights and criminal defense firm here in the state of Connecticut. With me, as always, is my man, Seth Price, down there in the BluShark, Price Benowitz office. BluShark, your SEO for law firms, as well as Price Benowitz, your DC, Maryland, Virginia, South Carolina, and God knows where else next, when Seth gets a bee in his bonnet and decides to dominate the next market. Seth, as always, how’s your week going?
Going well, a little stressful, but all in all, good.
Well, it wouldn’t be running a law firm or another agency if it wasn’t stressful.
Yeah, there’s always something. You know, in the last half hour, there’s somebody bitching and moaning about what happened in a criminal case from five years ago, person who is not with us anymore… we got a lovely former employee who, you know, one of the issues of leaving our firm is we market them personally so much that it can be years before they fully extract out of our inter webs, not our own controlled ones, but the crawlers and the scrapers that are out there. So, always fun, always exciting, what’s going in your world?
So, I want to talk briefly about something that I think it would be relevant to our audience, and that is departing employees. You know, one of the things that’s going on with the, you know, they call it the great resignation, is that people are starting to look at opportunities elsewhere, whether it’s attorneys, whether it’s administrative staff, whether it’s the, you know, the guy who empties the garbage cans, you know, any one of those people could be looking for an opportunity elsewhere, and as law firm owners, as business owners, I think we should talk a little bit about when that presents itself and how do you respond, because, you know, I have a long fuse, but I explode when I explode. And this actually came up with one of my partners who brought it to me, saying, you know, everybody is valuable. My perspective always was, if you don’t like me… you know, get out the door, don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out, but, you know, in today’s economy, I don’t think that’s necessarily the right response to take because if someone’s leaving, not only replacing them is difficult, but onboarding them is difficult, training them. And so, if you’re presented with the opportunity to maybe counter an offer, what sort of calculations do you make mentally in addition to the dollars and cents? What, to make that decision, is it right to try to keep them around?
Okay, so let’s back up, because it’s a great question, what I’m dealing with today, so fresh in my mind, but before we get there, two things, right? First, firm culture, the better that is, the more sort of, the less sensitive somebody’s going to be in straight dollars, right? If they love, love, love where they were. And secondly, which is not always possible, right? There are certain drop jobs that are, you know, the job is the job if you like, you know, slicing and dicing numbers and accounting, you’ll like it, but some people that’s, you know, that’s a tougher road to go. And the second thing is dollars, are you competitive with the market, because a lot of times there are people who get in inexpensively and they’re not really savvy to the market, and it may take a random opportunity that falls in their lap or a recruiter that finds them that all of a sudden gives them a number significantly higher than where they’re at. We were fine for a while so, you know, and it’s a pull and tug, right? Because if you paid everybody top of the market, you’d be out of business, or it’d be much less profitable, you wouldn’t be out of business, or, you know, if so, I feel there’s always a pull and tug and something that I have done and it was talked about a little bit on the show, is making sure that we’re truing up as many salaries as possible, keeping the annual reviews in place, making sure you’re looking at the market, and you’re not letting somebody languish far behind, right?
We talked about this, you know, a couple of months ago on the show, you know, with my propensity to hire brand new lawyers, they have very limited value to almost any firm, but after six months of being in a systemized firm, and getting them out there on their feet, you know, doing things, all of a sudden, you know, they may, you know, may be worth another 15 or $20,000 to the next… or more, though…
I mean, that’s the issue, I talk about this all the time. A law clerk comes in at 40, they graduate law school, they’re 50, they pass the bar, it’s 55, you can even raise to 60, and they’re with you for, let’s say, nine months to a year, 10 months. And all of a sudden, they’ve been on two calendar years with Jay Ruane, and all of a sudden, the market says, you know what, my associate left, this guy’s a second year, you know, and he knows what he’s doing, that’s worth 92 to 100 to me, that’s a big, big delta. And that’s one issue, but it’s not that, we’ve talked about that, because there, it’s partially psychological. To me, it’s giving somebody a percentage of what they’re worth to you so that if they are in fact running cases, knowing that they’re getting X percent of those cases, will keep you honest, and them fully compensated, margins go down slightly but longevity is definitely there. We had just a case today, lovely guy, who’s sort of our junior accounting person, and he’s been paid fairly, and just, frankly, you know, got some bumps but could’ve used a little bit more. And got, you know, with his full comp package, he was just offered something that at least on paper, when you take in slightly better benefits and a slightly better match. That was about 1,000 to $1,500, I put it at 1,000, put it at a $1,500 difference. We immediately came back when he sort of said, hey, I want to take another job and said, what will it take to keep you? And we offered the cash value of benefits for his compensation for the new place. I thought it was a done deal, didn’t happen. So, I came back and said, hey, what if we took money off the table, here’s a $2,500 signing bonus paid out over a few months, you’re now, anyway you slice it, several $1,000 ahead of where you’d be, we’ll renegotiate after a year, but it’s giving you an on ramp, and you like the place, you know, he really likes his boss. He’s in a pod that’s there, and to me, part of what I wanted, I may or may not win, and I hope we do, but in BluShark we had a similar one that I may have even mentioned, where somebody, longstanding employee had an offer, there were some options that were there and sounded very sexy. When you looked at straight dollars, and how we had paid him and bonused him, he was as well off with us already, and it was a much easier way to keep, in that we had done right along the way, but part of it, which was arguably our fault, is we weren’t showing a full comp package of what his bonus was, of what his benefits were, and then when we laid that out, we actually retained one of our longest standing employees who had arguably a very nice, so I think the two things, one, is making clear, what apples to apples, what’s out there. Secondly, keeping the lines of communication open, and ideally, letting people know if you have an opportunity, please bring it to us because we want to make sure at or above market, doesn’t always work, but the more that you have that relationship with people, the better chance you have of not losing somebody stupidly because they say, oh, well, I already accepted. Well, bring it to us first before because there’s that psychological point, when people make decisions, they very often don’t want to go back, and you don’t want to be retracting, you want to be pushing forward.
So, let me ask you this too, and it comes down to a culture question, not necessarily your internal culture of your practice, or the agency, but one of society at large. You know, back 40, 50, I’m gonna age myself here, but everyone can see how old I am. You know, it wasn’t uncommon for people to come out of college, get a job, and then that’d be their home for 30, 40 years until retirement. And then, the pendulum really swung the other way where people were, you know, jobs were fungible, and people were moving around a lot. And I think, perhaps, culturally, you get somebody who’s right out of law school or right out of college in your agency, or even, you know, in an admin position, junior accountant position in a law firm, you know, he’s handling the post, that type of thing. You know, they’re with you for two or three years and I tend to look at it as, you know, they did four years in college, four years High School, four years College, three or four years in law school. So, now they’re out practicing for two and a half, three years, they’re starting to get that itch where psychologically, okay, it’s time to move on to something else, and I’m wondering if the greater culture at large has this wanderlust built into it now, where people are expendable. I’m not going to have a job for 10 years or 15 years, I’m gonna bounce every three years because that is what people do.
Well can you get, look, there are people where you lock them in and you think that you’ve paid them at market. The problem is that you very often just mark it in time, sort of my BluShark experience. I had people stay with me for two years working on digital with me, they didn’t leave to go to a competitor or do digital somewhere else, they left to do, be a sports agent, and, so part of it is when they’re young, but let’s say you get somebody in Connecticut, you know, rural Connecticut, they’re an admin, I think that you can generally through promotion, get people opportunities that they see. We took a front desk person who left us, who was basically, you know, in office, she needed to move back to New York state for personal reasons, ended up making an offer, she couldn’t refuse. She was working remotely doing administrative, said she wanted to do accounting, got her some classes, she’s now the number two person in our accounting department, and has been doing it remotely for many years way before COVID. So, I think part of it is finding opportunities for people and continued growth, not just money, and that very often people move because their number becomes so dramatically different from market that you, that if you’ve, not taken advantage of, but you’ve allowed that to, when you allow that delta to get too big, it becomes a risk factor, and you may be fine with it or not.
So let me ask you, we have a friend, Alex Nguyen, down south, I forget where he is. Is he maybe Georgia… yeah 770 Good Law. And he’s a phenomenal lawyer, former actuary, poker dealer, just had a baby who’s cute as hell, and he does something that’s really interesting. And I think a lot of people should hear what he does is that he actually takes all of his people and says, you need to go out and interview for a job every year, and get an offer, and then I will decide if you are worth me matching it or bettering it, or I should let you go to that next job. Financially, it’s better for you. And it’s a really interesting way to sort of approach this, I mean, I don’t know if you can do it.
I love Alex…
He’s not normal, right? He’s a very black and white…
He’s not normal, and like with all these stories, not Alex, but all these crazy stories, two things, never let the truth get in the way of a good story, that sounds like a great thing, how often is it actually done? A. B, you know, like, I take many, like, I wish you could, it’s like in many things in life, which aren’t public companies where the money, the numbers are out there and verified. People tell you stuff all the time, now about Alex, but about everything. And, you know, look, there are legit places that have tried this for its Zappos… is it Zappos or Amazon where once you get hired, they pay, they’re willing to pay you…
Zappos… Quit if you don’t want to be here, and here’s like $5,000 if you quit, otherwise, we really want you to be here and want you to commit to it.
Right, and so, some of the stuff, but look, those are all like, the people that tell you to apply by FedEx and envelope with triple space letter, like what I’m saying is like, let’s get rid of the funny stuff. First, are you compensating at the right level? To me, fundamental. Second, is it a place somebody wants to come to work? And third, is there an opportunity for advancement? And when you can answer those questions positively… Look, I look at BluShark and Price Benowitz to a lesser extent, there are places where we don’t have real turnover, and when I look at it, it’s like, BluShark in particular, amazing culture, it has people paid well, and those that excel get managerial experience and more pay. And we sort of push money in the direction of those that we want to keep, and to a certain extent, I think that some of the stuff we’re talking about with overseas labor, dovetails into this because it is competitive, and we’re going to have to as business owners, push beyond our comfort zone to compensate some people at this point, with inflation in particular, so that if we’re not pushing ourselves to compensate, and we’re not like, during COVID, we lost our ops person, reviews went by the wayside, that’s when I lost people in my intake team. We weren’t keeping up with salaries, the market was moving. So, when and if you actually aren’t all cylinders, and have people doing interviews and have touch points, whether it’s 15Five or the Jay Ruane is too cheap to pay for 15Five, he does it himself, like when those things are firing, you have a much better chance, not to mention that when somebody does surprise you in an interview, which is going to happen over time. I’m not a big fan of encouraging somebody to do that, but I want to know what market is and if we’re not paying it market, let me know and we’ll make sure we correct it.
Absolutely. Okay, so that’s topic number one for today. Next topic is, I’m reading The Wall Street Journal the other day, and there is an article that talks about the changing demographics of the workforce. And specifically, it talks about how there is a significant portion of the population that has retired or is contemplating retirement because of COVID, and the stock market did well for them the last couple of years, and they’re at a point now where they don’t necessarily want to work full time, but the opportunity for like a semi-retirement in their same industry doesn’t really exist. And so, they’re left with the choice of do I keep working, you know, 45-55 hours a week? Or do I just, do I call it quits and retire? And I’m wondering, in our business, except for those very large firms that, you know, we don’t play a part in, there are a lot of solos and small firms out there that haven’t really created a defined exit strategy for law. And you talk to anybody I know, who’s 65 plus, they all say, ¨I can’t wait to, you know, close this out. I like doing some things, but like, 90% of it I can’t stand anymore, but I love handling the clients, that’s why I stick around.¨ And I’m wondering if it is possible for a law firm to grow and scale by tapping into that population of lawyers that are looking for semi-retirement, and it’s not necessarily acquiring their firm, because the firm might not have any value to acquire, right? But they could sort of fold in their firm into your operation, into your systems like we have, and they may want to work, you know, 500 hours a year rather than, you know, 2000, or more, maybe 1000 hours. What do you think about that as an option? Is it something that people should do?
Of course, and so, what do we have? We have, let me just think about how to put this. Yes, yes and yes. A couple of years…
Oh, I didn’t get it depends! I didn’t get it depends!
No, no, no, but I’ll give you that if that makes you happy, but I tried this so hard pre COVID to acquire people who are at that age. Part of the issue is, you see several factors, and we’ve talked about this in different places, so when it works, it’s freaking awesome. I was just in Curacao, John Fisher’s mastermind, this awesome attorney, Sam from the Miami market with his family and probate, rockstars, is going to be a star in coming years, already a star but, you know, gonna go well into the stratosphere. You know, she was able to pick up after a year of discussions, a senior family law lawyer, exactly what you’re talking about, and brought it in and broader, and when that happens, freaking pager, it’s amazing, complimented, senior, she’s mid-level and, you know, all these things come together. Awesome, you know, but it is so much easier said than done. They’re the Andrew Finkelstein’s of this year, pick up firms, but the individual people, it is kissing a lot of toads, and I’m saying when it works, God bless, but you and I have had this very conversation of the people without a book of business, you don’t really want them, right? Just the change management of bringing them in onto your systems is a pain in the ass that may outweigh the money built. So, if there’s a Rolodex, a phone number with stuff coming in, if there’s cases and they don’t know, yes, yes, and yes, but it is a very thin line, you’re threading a needle, and, again, you want it, I’m all for it, I’m just saying, like, it is not easy to do. It is, the home run that I just heard about was a year in the making for a single person, and it was worth it, I’m sure, but there are plenty of people that dance for a year and it never happens. I’ve had people, friends, I have friends’ fathers that I’ve known for years, and like my dad is 86, so, anybody who waited for him to retire, you know, that was, you know, maybe he never got the right answer. He’s at a bigger firm, he works with a firm besides being Senior Counsel of my firm, but it is easier said than done. The economics are tough, the change management, you want to follow your systems, good luck with the technology. There are all those things so, yes, if you get the person, the right age with the right acumen, the right sensibility, some business that’s actually make it worth your while, yes. But going back to the Jay Ruane of five years ago, when I talked to you, you’re like all these people want jobs and they have broken business models, not ideal… and so look, it comes up, there’s no reason that we shouldn’t be seeing PI people in our markets squeezed out, you know, when Morgan enters, it doesn’t devastate anybody, but it makes it 10% harder to practice, right? So, all these people that were on the bubble, hopefully there’s something there. The question is, will they raise their hand and do it before there’s nothing there? That is really the question. And just like a lot of other areas, like in business development, who’s somebody to refer the case to, if you took this on as a business, I’m going to contact 100 people, you know, yes, but it’s not, other than happenstance and falling into it, a system is going to be needed, perhaps we’ll see that in the great fast-growing Systems Group. What is the system going to be? Are we going to get an overseas talent to go and scrape all those that are out there in the practice areas you want, are you going to send letters, because they don’t always open email, what are we going to do to type it? And then, what drip campaign? Because just like dating, you know, it is…
It’s not something, it’s not going to happen on a single cold call, it’s going to be, you have to germinate that idea, let it grow in there, and…
And frankly, if you just spent that time head down working on your marketing ability, would you be better off? You know, that’s where history is written by the victor, when it falls in your lap, it’s freaking awesome, but it is, you know, just the change management value of integrating… one of the guys who was at at Fisher’s piece, one of my favorite guys out of South Florida, Adam Rosen has a kick ass criminal firm down there. He’s trying to do a change from one case management software to another and it’s blowing up, awfully. You know, we had a great lawyer with us who never fully integrated into our software, he stayed on his own software, never fully came on board. It was part of the reason that it was not a full, you know, it was endemic of the fact that it was not a blowout success. So, you know, each of these things, if you can get the right person, right time with value and buy in and work. Yes, yes, yes. Amazing. So, you want your depends, there it is. So, I want it, I just, it’s not easy money, it’s not a layup. If you really made a business of it, I think you could do it. There was an entire pre-day on John Fisher’s mastermind on acquiring firms. Ken Hardison at PILMMA is doing an entire day on buying and selling firms at the third day, the final day of PILMMA, so, there is all sorts of awesome work out there on this, and this is sort of a micro version of the buying and selling firms, but it is not a free lunch.
Well, I think one of the challenges is that we all know that lawyers are going to dramatically over value the value of their firm because, you know, if they don’t have systems in place, if they don’t have a brand that they’ve built, and they’ve just gotten business over the last 30 years by being out there and people knowing them, you know that terms tend to drop off. And, you know, it’s funny, I was talking to my father, and he was lamenting that, you know, he doesn’t get that many referrals anymore, and I said, well, Dad, you’re 72 and the guys who referred your business are now 85, and they’re done. So, that…
That’s the easy cop out answer. How much has he done to cultivate it? How many lunches has he done? How many coffees has he done? How many letters has he written? How many emails has he sent? So, like, in one sense, yes, there’s some of that, but he has a catchment, generally, here’s a bunch of people that are 70 that are still, you know…
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It’s just not as much as it used to be.
When is the last time they heard from him? So, no, I’m just saying, so, look, that is part of what’s endemic is, is there, he wants it, but has he paid the, you know, look at using Fisher as an example, right? This is a guy who wrote two books, runs a mastermind underwater, he’s done all those things to keep the referral piece going, you know, you’re sitting in a freaking swag shirt behind a booth at a Connecticut bar function to get your name out there.
Right. I mean, the reality is, is that everyone is looking for this sort of magic wand, that, oh, I’m gonna get business somehow, but they don’t necessarily, you know, actually do the hard work, you know, to actually get it, and that’s one of the things that I wanted to end this segment about, is that if you are going to talk to somebody about coming in, in a semi-retirement position or absorbing their firm to help them find a pathway to retirement, which is what they’re looking for, and it could be mutually beneficial. I think you need to set some parameters; you’re going to commit to doing X, Y or Z, I mean, one of the things that came up in this conversation in our office was like, let’s look to see who is, you know, who has reviews out there? Who’s got a practice that actually is still cultivating reviews? It blew my mind, it blows my mind that three or four of the major, major names in PI in our state have seven, four reviews.
But Jay, thank freaking God, you say, I look at it the other way, I look at it half full like if they didn’t, we’d be done. If we were, I entered the market, I grew this, my firm, like reflecting with somebody in like a seven-year period, we added 25 lawyers or some craziness, right? If the other guys around me were doing these things. So, you know, look…
I hear you, I hear you, but what I’m saying is, is that there’s a new legal economy that has taken over and what I’m seeing is a significant portion of the population of lawyers are oblivious to it. They’re absolutely oblivious to it.
Or they don’t look, or you say that, but my, the guys in my market with no reviews, they have a reputation, they’re multigenerational, and they walk in, when I heard about this catastrophic case in my neighborhood recently where somebody, the Tesla slammed into a lady in, you know, took her out, I mean, she’s barely alive, airlifted, all that stuff, who gets the case, the firm with no reviews, so like, again…
Right, but they’re getting the cases now, in 2025, 2028, are they still gonna be…
Still, there’s a world you and I don’t necessarily always plan, you do to a certain extent because of your dad, but there’s a world that isn’t about reviews online, where when you call up, you know this, when somebody calls up and says, who’s the Connecticut DUI lawyer from the college, nobody’s looking at your reviews, maybe they do, but even if you had no reviews, if somebody in the college says, Jay Ruane is the man in Connecticut, that trumps all, and so, you know, pick your poison, like, yes, so to me, if you’re expecting reviews in the full package, that’s not what’s going to come. What you’re going to find is the person who has that name, and then you could have both, you could then, you know, then, you can get that name out there and market it for them and do it, and that, to me, is that, like, I think it’s part of the security of Price Benowitz success, taking people who are badass lawyers that would have the referral business, and then putting them on a pedestal so that you could amplify that very message.
And that’s, my thought is, you know, identify the people that are still working, doing well, that are generating referrals, but don’t have an exit strategy in place. And you can provide a soft landing that gives them the exit strategy and steps them down over time, and then you can use your people in your systems to cultivate an additional 150 reviews over the next 18 months from their, you know, long term clients and people who love them, and they can spend some time every week dialing for reviews, hey, can you give us a review of my new firm, and you could dramatically increase your review count, which is going to matter to a large portion of the population down the line.
We got to wrap this up, but I’ll, you know, for this segment, but for the shutter day, but what I would say is I’ll give you a great example, free advice from me out there, trust and estates, tough way to make a buck, you know, it’s, there are people scaling it, but that is one that is most ripe for this, right? Because most other areas, you need somebody else to get divorced, it happens, it’s good, but think about it… What?
Everyone’s gonna die.
Well, no, but meaning acquiring the practice means there is an entire safe of wills that need work and that if somebody else is getting out of the game, when that’s still out there, that is a very, very solid business development play where the person wants somebody to take care of them. So, to me, there are areas that are more right for it and areas that are less. I think you’ve kind of proved the point, that criminal is probably one of the tougher ones, where the half-life of your reputation goes down dramatically, and that is probably harder to make the value add there, given the New World and the short memory of people compared to certain other areas, whether it be personal injury, where there’s inventory, and or legacy clients that are thrilled, trusted estates probably the best where there’s, you know, where people have probate matters that are waiting to have need, or wills to be updated. To me, that is the place where I would be like, the most aggressive, because to me, that’s the right best, just like digitally, criminal DUI is the best in that it has the least word of mouth, and the most digital.
Absolutely. Well, a lot of stuff here today, you know, talking about senior lawyers, talking about, you know, trying to hold people and what really what we’re trying to do is just start a dialogue to get you thinking about some of the topics that you’re going cross as you grow and scale your firm and that’s what our show is all about. Of course, if you want to follow us online, you can do so here live every week 3pm Eastern, 12pm Pacific, wherever our show is streamed, there’s John Fisher’s group. Maximum Lawyer, our own page, the systems group, and I’m going to be posting something in the systems group later this week. All of, in fact, tomorrow morning, I think I have it scheduled to go all about how to ship stuff to your people overseas because it can be really expensive to send stuff, you want to send office swag or some file folders, or stuff that you like to use in your offices, there’s a cheap way that you can do it, and I’m going to put that up in the systems group, so be sure to join my systems group if you want to get that and all of the other 100 systems that I posted in the last year. Of course, if you want to follow Seth, you can follow him through BluShark Digital and their digital presence. His Law Firm Insider as well as the SEO Insider are available on his YouTube page, and there’s some great stuff that you can do there. If you want to catch our podcast, you should know that there’s actually two podcasts of ours. There’s the original Maximum Growth Live podcast but there’s a new feed with Apple that updated all the feeds so you’re going to want to look for the Maximum Growth Live gray 2022 podcast feed… that’s got all the evidence, all the episodes.
We should be, we should make sure that we get a link for that out there.
Make sure that’s in the show notes.
Let’s make sure that gets out there because too many people are getting confused and emailing me.
Absolutely, absolutely. Okay Seth, last thing, anything else that you need to talk about?
No, have a great, have a great weekend.
Yeah, we’re getting snow tomorrow, I’m gonna try to get out tonight and have a couple of drinks with the guys to work my referral network. I’ve got one friend who I haven’t seen in a while, and so that’s my mission for tonight. And then, tomorrow we’re getting slammed with snow, and then, I got baseball tryouts this weekend. I got a full weekend with the kids, which is exactly what I like to do. And then, hopefully sometime soon, I’ll be getting into warmer weather. So, that’s my plan. Anything you got going on?
I got, one of my happy BluShark clients gave me his glass side seats for Flyers Caps in Philly.
Ah, there you go.
Taking a kid down there and we got a bar mitzvah just a weekend away. So, you know, countdown for that. Gotta go press the suit, but all and all, good stuff.
That sounds like fun. If you’re going to be in Philly, make sure you get a cheesesteak at Tony Luke’s.
I did four years in West Philly at UPenn, and that was not there. It was Pat’s and Geno’s, Abner’s, and Jim’s. That’s all we have.
So, are you a Pat’s or Geno’s guy?
You know, it’s funny because I use that as my question whenever somebody calls in from Philly. I trained my, if you see a 215610 number, always ask that question, and my answer is whatever had the shorter line, I love them both.
See, I’m not a Geno’s fan at all. One of my very first dates with my wife was the Pat’s and Geno’s cheesesteak tastes off. I’m a Pat’s guy through and through, I am not a Geno’s guy, I don’t want to go near Geno’s whatsoever, so, folks, I am Pat’s, he’s whatever, and we are Max Growth Live. Thanks for watching and we’ll see you next week. Have a great one. Bye for now.
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