BluShark Digital 0:00
Welcome to the SEO Insider, with your host, Seth Price, founder of BluShark, taking you inside the world of legal marketing and all things digital.
Seth Price 0:10
Welcome, everyone. We are thrilled for part two with Adam here from Open Jar Concepts. Welcome, Adam.
Adam Warren 0:16
Thank you, great to be here.
Seth Price 0:17
You know, we’ve spent a lot of time over the years at different conferences, talking big picture, and you guys have always been very strong from the TV, mass media angle. And I’ve always brought stuff from the digital sort of traditional search, SEO, you know, perspective. And the reason I wanted to have you back on is I feel like what we have been seeing over the last months, quarters, has been a correlation more than ever, between mass media and search. And that, you know, in essence, not a bad time to be in SEO, we are seeing much of what goes, transpires with mass media reflected in people not calling directly from their phones, necessarily, but people then coming back through web channels to interact with law firms, I want to get your thoughts on what you’re seeing.
Adam Warren 1:16
Oh, that’s exactly what we’re seeing. Look, it’s it’s just so natural, we’re so conditioned now to even before we call anything to go and do our own research first, which is could be as simplistic as looking at someone’s website. And what we are noticing, from some awareness campaigns we’re doing, where we’re really just propagating brand to, even direct to consumer marketing that we’re doing for law firms, that people are definitely taking the time to first go to the website, take a look at the practice areas that they’re interested in, we’re noticing direct from launch, to lift, so SEO or organic lift, sometimes as much as 25% or higher than previous months where we were not live doing the marketing we’re doing for those campaigns. So it is directly correlateable.
Seth Price 2:17
You know, so it’s interesting. So historically, I’ve taken the perspective as an SEO with BluShark, that we don’t take credit for branded search, that that is generally, you know, attributable either to their own, you know, networking, prior clients, existing clients, as well as mass media, meaning if there’s a giant push with brand, brand is not something an SEO should be taking credit for. From my perspective, it’s pretty, you know, however, I think what’s interesting, is that, what I’m seeing, like I’m a beta test myself at Price Benowitz, where we integrated radio recently, we’ve had some of our best months to date, very little is attributable directly to radio.
Adam Warren 2:19
Yep.
Seth Price 2:23
And look, there other factors, we’re happy to to have some good referral months yada, yada. But what, you know, the question that is sort of we know is there we know, the Google algorithm is rewarding branded search with the algorithm for traditional search search, let’s say where your’e looking for for money, keywords, or longtail, but that, is there a correlation where people are basically, they know a brand in the back of their head. So that there there’s a certain amount you’re gonna get credit for, from direct traffic where the brand is mentioned. The question is when somebody’s doing a search is that brand in their head enough so that when they’re given five choices, or three choices, that that’s going to push somebody psychologically over the edge to push one, over another, whereas had they not done the brand? It would have been a different result. But the reason somebody’s clicking on it, or giving a second look, after they’ve searched for Phoenix Car Accident Lawyer, is that they know a brand in the back of their head, that wasn’t maybe the main reason they did the search, but that the dues you’ve paid the money that they’ve contributed and put in to that campaign, that you’re in a position where you reap, you reap benefits beyond just branded searches coming to the site.
Adam Warren 4:35
I mean, I don’t see how it doesn’t, and most certainly, the numbers are leading us to that KPI that, it’s very symbiotic. That if you’re doing, what is branding, right, what is happening when someone’s seeing your TV spot on television, hearing it on radio? We’re just ingraining. It. We’re g etting it into that memory for when and where you need it. Now, they may be close to or at a point where, hey, I need this and I need to start researching. So okay, they go online, either they’re going directly to that law firms brand who’s already in their mind, or they’re searching it and perhaps that law firm brand comes up, they’re still going to lean into that versus any other brand that they don’t have that familiarity with. So I don’t see how it doesn’t, one does-
Seth Price 5:35
Clearly there’s an effect. And it’s really a question. Look, I’ll tell you, from an SEO point of view, there are times when somebody’s not attributing a lot to our efforts. But then I go to them and say, hey, we’ve been working with you for a year and a half, how was your last six months? And they’re like, it’s our best six months ever, we had a big increase over the prior year, there are things that I can prove, that I know are there. And you know, there are times where stuff is not attributable, you know, and that people are doing research, picking up later, and you can’t tell where it’s coming from. And so, you know, that that one-two combination, we have a couple of prominent players that are major TV players. And it’s interesting, because, you know, we know the Google algorithm has given us this huge advantage for TV players like it or not, it’s a thing, right, you can try to, you can try to compensate for that, let’s say with paid social, some sort of form of cheap traffic that comes through. And it allows you to, that gives you that extra advantage, that to try to help the algorithm see you as a trusted brand. I think what, it’s what I think that I’m hearing from you from other TV people, is that, like there’s less and less attention on broadcast TV, where I don’t know if you can, if you’re, are you getting luck, this is sort of a pivot question. Are you seeing much response from OTO? You know, are you, do you see, is that working, or is most of your investment for single event players in broadcast still?
Adam Warren 7:15
A lot of it is still, look, I don’t not see the benefit of OTO. But that is a long game, that not everyone has the patience and capital runoff to play. I still would not even in our now years of skies falling on broadcast and local cable, I would not pull off of those just yet. And I don’t know if I’m ever going to advocate for that because it is going to continuously be harder. If you abandon those platforms, those traditional platforms to get the kind of cost effective frequency that, that media is going to give you. You’re noticing on OTO it is a higher, more elevated type of brand. You’re seeing they’ve got the money, they also have a much higher level of brand equity. And so if you don’t have those two things, I wouldn’t say ignore it. But I wouldn’t put all your eggs in those baskets either.
Seth Price 8:26
No, right. And it just it’s interesting, watching a lot of the friends retrospectives with the death of a cast member from the show. And it reminded me of a time where everybody watched must see TV on Thursday night. It would be ubiquidous. And there were certain things like local news, and which you would stay to the NBC Sports, there might be a rerun of mash or later year’s Seinfeld that were there. And not that there still isn’t a population for it. But where is that going? You know, who is still who is still there. Now, the good news is, I think for most PI lawyers, is that very often it’s the demographic they want, and that there still is an audience that it will resonate. So that the question is, you know, what I’m sort of surprised at is that I am seeing as I think you’re probably are seeing a greater correlation. And it may be how we watch that even when we watch TV, whether it be broadcast or streaming. It is rare that any of us watch without a phone in our hand. And that before, there was a there was a phone like an old school phone where you might dial a number and call in. But today, you may be doing an immediate search for for a brand at that point, A) and then B) that because of the fact that you’re not thinking of dialling right away, that there’s a certain amount of research, as you mentioned being done. But that if something is top of mind and you see it again, it’s like my old school way where I wanted to be in the paid, the three pack, and the organic if I could run the table, right, you were building brand, as somebody walked out, well, they’re everywhere, they must be great. And I’m wondering whether or not this is the new version of that they’re on TV, and they’re there, wow, if they’re in both these places, this must be something I need to do business with, versus I heard something online, I do an independent search. If that group that was broadcast isn’t in those search results, you may not, you may not pick it up that you could buy your way the top with paid search. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But unle- that’s a pretty expensive, low ROI where you’re double dipping, you’re paying for one and now the second. So unless you’re getting crazy, click through rates on PPC is a tough, tough, expensive game where your cost per case isn’t just what you’re paying, you know, Adam at all, but it’s that plus a paid campaign to make sure you’re relevant when somebody’s searching.
Adam Warren 11:10
Yeah, look, I think that we coined a phrase, or term called hybrid fusion, Seth, and that is basically acknowledgement of how many different places you need to be to make all your marketing work. From SEO, which I’m glad there’s folks out there like yourself who do that because we do not. We play in an other traditional and non traditional from TV, radio, print, Billboard social media, and we tend to pull all those strategies together, so ever- It’s all rowing in the same direction. Because as standalones I don’t see any one of those as a standalone, potent enough to drive what is needed in today’s media consumption environment, to do it on a one by one basis. And that’s why, you know, when I told you earlier before we got on the call I’ve been working with Drew Bervona of Boervona Law and Ryan Bernella who’s been watching all of Drew’s SEO and handling the web side, it has been exhilarating for us to see, hey, I’m used to like, hey, what do you mean, every call isn’t, that’s gone to a case hasn’t come off the TV or the radio, however, calls and cases and click throughs are happening that weren’t happening previously. Because now everything’s working, working together. It’s been exciting to see that data.
Seth Price 12:49
No, look, it’s exciting. There’s no doubt that there’s, this is not your imagination or my by immagination. There’s something there. But let me let me ask you this. When we look at, you know, which piece is it, because before, this is the irony, if I go back 5-10 years, there were people that were making so much money off TV, that they literally ignored digital, they didn’t care. You know, some of my mentors in the space, you know, and ironically, some of the agencies have been bought. But there was one TV agency that had a digital arm as they felt they needed to, actually two of them were they weren’t just bad, but they were god awful, like best practices irrelevant, which meant that they were essentially punting on any money being made from digital, and essentially just not wanting to mess with anybody else. And all of their revenue was coming through directly from TV because they weren’t showing up in search. And so the, the is, is it the, is it not only that there’s a smaller audience, which is true, right? There’s less, less eyeballs watching TV you have to pay more to get these. But is it that the consumers, even ones that aren’t as educated, are getting data points from multiple places, that the idea that you’re going straight from a TV ad is almost it used to be something that was possible is, you know, brand still works. And there are people that get over the hump and have a pure brand. Like, you know, Morgan has done something where you know, when you’re, when my kids know the name, you know that they’ve created something and spent enough money to get to that point, but for everybody else, unless you become a household name in a market, you’re essentially is it now that you’re just part of somebody’s entire consciousness, and that its giving you an advantage when they go to search but that people aren’t going direct from an ad the way they once were?
Adam Warren 14:56
I think yeah, that well, here’s here’s how I’m kind of thinking about this. And I don’t know, if you do much social media shopping, I call it getting Instagrammed. And it happens to me quite a bit and, and my wife, right, I see an ad in my stream, I probably see it six times till they finally broken me down and I just bought something I probably didn’t need. However, I was able to do that transaction with a few clicks of a button. I never need to spoke- speak to anyone, Apple paid it, done. I think in some way, we are very trained right now, to see and hear, see and hear, but act through digital, act through
Seth Price 15:39
Interesting.
Adam Warren 15:39
Just accessing the digital market because we are so well trained to do so, it is so convenient. Many of us don’t love getting on the phone with someone we don’t know. And I think people especially as younger and younger generations come they’re, so used to not really talking to people. I’m concerned about social ineptitude. And that’s a whole other conversation. But I think that-
Seth Price 16:04
Okay, I get you. Let me ask sort of a digressing question off of that. There, I get those ads, we all do, and I get a certain amount of impulse purchase. Every once in a while I go and google the product outside of the ad. And more often than not, it is substantially less if I’m not paying the Facebook reseller who’s getting that widget to me. The moment I Google it, I’m like, oh, this is available everywhere. This guy just has a very clever way of presenting it to me. So I wouldn’t have, it’s on Amazon for half the price. I’m making that up. You know, 30% less. And the question is, you know, is it, is that you know, that ease is again, I think about it that wa. Because most people aren’t me aren’t doing that. But is there a social proof, whether it be through social, or whether it be through search, that if I’m seeing it online, it’s taking on a different meaning in the buying process. And that’s what you were sort of alluding to before us, than just seeing a brand on TV. That’s interesting. Oh, this is one of the people that’s out there. So it must be legit, because I’m seeing it through that medium.
Adam Warren 17:17
Oh, and look at the, I’m talking about products right now. But I could equate this to the law firm presence. And listen, I follow a lot of them, especially through our Instagram page that I’m seeing more and more law firms, maybe even some of them who just aren’t doing TV that are going all in on high quality, important, engaging content on social media. And they’re posting three to five times a week. And they’re probably pulling cases from it, because they are acting and mimicking within the same model that I was just talking about, which is basically revolutionized non big box retail.
Seth Price 18:02
But there’s no free lunch. I’m telling you, I have seen I put money I don’t think.
Adam Warren 18:06
I don’t know that it’s a free lunch.
Seth Price 18:07
Oh, no, no, no, what I’m saying even more so, I apologize. It’s this, this is supporting the idea that broadcast still works in that when you just do social as a brand play. I’ve done it. I’ve seen clients do it. That it’s it, it is not there’s a reason that lead gen is not social first.
Adam Warren 18:26
You’re right, you’ve got to start at the, look when I entered this business. And that was a long time ago. The saying we had was like there’s nothing like the power of TV. Now. I still believe that TV has just taken on a different meaning, what what you and I might talk about as television and my daughter’s might talk about as TV are probably different. And I’m still harkening back to the earliest days of broadcast and they just don’t even, they’re definitely computer stream, right?
Seth Price 19:02
But can I get to your daughter? That’s again going different direction. Where is your daughter going to find her thousands lawyer, not your daughter because you know, 1000s of but how, you know, where is the average Adam daughter, you know, going to be able to find it because I get it you’re top of funnel for many, many people and it’s still effective. I get it. It’s not that it’s not effective. But the question is, what is the cocktail that’s needed? In order to make that happen?
Adam Warren 19:30
I think, I think what we said earlier look, it’s a it’s an all oars in the water kind of thing. I think SEO is extremely important to it. I think that broadcast and streaming, both extremely important to it. And that’s a TV and radio analysis. And then I think you know, working social media, you I don’t think in terms of how we’ll just, we can call them potential plaintiffs or claimants, we can also call them consumers, I don’t think the theory behind a consumer must see something three to four times before they’ll take any action is lost, I still think that’s in place, the thing that we have to keep working towards is how many ways we have to get in front of them now. So they see it, or become familiar with it that three to four times, and maybe it’s maybe we’re dealing with the more sceptical audience, maybe it’s four to six times. And which wouldn’t surprise me, but I think that everything we’re doing everything that we’re discussing here is is the required mechanism to to reach that audience, there’s enga- we moved in a different direction. We Seth, we moved more towards trying to be or not trying, I think successfully executing from an engaging, memorable branded content, there is the traditional law firm ad that I think law firms will run until the end of time, because they feel safe doing that. There’s the kind of ads we like to do, which becomes more about telling the law firm’s individual story from an entertaining and memorable way. And that’s how we jump a few of those barriers to get people to remember the firms we represent when it’s time when it’s time for that consumer to call.
Seth Price 21:40
But you’re sort of answering your own question, if that’s your predilection, that’s going to be less call to action more brand, which means the good news is you’re differentiating yourself from call now, if you’ve been hurt, the bad news is, it’s not direct call to action, which means that you’re gonna have to pick the person up somewhere else, I think long term, you’re playing it the right way. But it’s also, you know, I see, you’re not the only group that plays that game. And it’s sort of like I was people are like brand, its like, well, at some point that becomes a brand. But until then you’re just pissing money away. So once you get to the point where that story is out there, that’s great. But as much as we think of ourselves, it sometimes takes that whether it’s through social or whether it’s through search, the the name to be seen again, before it connects. And the good news is you paid your dues, and you’ve done a great job painting them as the person they want to go to. But it may or may not stick in their noggin enough to actually do the search.
Adam Warren 22:35
I don’t know, I think that’s maybe where we could have a difference of opinion, I’ll say.
Seth Price 22:41
Well, I’m not saying, I’m just questioning isn’t like-
Adam Warren 22:43
All of the of the ads are in tech. So at the end of the day, everything has a call to action. But there’s a story to get there that makes it interesting enough to watch. So many law firm commercials are not interesting enough to watch. And they are as quick to be turned from the channel than they were as they came on the air in the first place. The ads that I think law firms need to start thinking about creating is something that can, is going to be watchable, and desired to be watched by the audience. And that’s probably one of the most important things you can do. Because when most people are seeing your ads, let’s take the lion, the lion share of people who are seeing and hearing this content in real time, it might not even be their time that they need the lawyer yet. And I’ve, and we may have talked about this in our last one and I talked about it at different conferences, and now. It’s not always about now that you’re building for your you’re building for yet, because most people don’t even know they need an attorney. But it does not hurt you to make yourself familiar to everybody. Because at some point in time, a large set of people in our society will need an attorney for an accident, for, for anything you can think of, there’s usually going to be a need for it. And if you don’t know the first place to look, because you’ve been tuning out the ads because they were just too disengaging to care about watching. Well, then you’re going to be starting from scratch when it happens and call the first one that pops on air. So you’re either playing a numbers game that way, or you’re playing the longer game. That being said, if you’re still putting, creating an interesting idea, you’re still putting phone number on there, you’re still putting a QR code that goes to the domain and writing out the domain itself. Maybe they’re then snapping a picture of the end tag and going and looking at it later. Now here comes the search. Now here goes comes to the direct to website. So what do they call in that second? I don’t always know if that’s immediately important, because it didn’t give them enough time to do any research, which I don’t see if they’ve done some research. Now they’re talking to the law firm. I don’t see that as a downside. I see that as a higher likelyhood of signing, and so that’s why I think you got to continuously work the circle. But look, we live in the age of content, who when-
Seth Price 25:09
I hear you, I just I smile, because I’m thinking this, you know, to a certain extent, and you’re gonna laugh. So you’ve known me for a long time you see me speak at conferences and moderating, I speak, I do all this different stuff. It is amazing how many times I leave the stage after a 45 minute presentation on digital marketing. And somebody in the audience says, So you’re a lawyer? Where do you think I should go for my digital marketing help?
Adam Warren 25:35
You’re like,
Seth Price 25:36
It’s unbelievable how little , I think a lot of myself, I think that I’m giving a great presentation that’s changing their life and saying, hey, if you can’t do it yourself, we’re a great answer. But I clearly am not doing a hard sell. I’m clearly teaching and hoping that the dots are connected. My question is, is this is this an issue for TV in general, or a new set of expectations? Which it sounds like, you know, how of the journey, in the sense that look, given that when I see an ad on TV, I stop, I’m like, can I pay more for that streaming service so that I don’t have ads. I don’t like, unless it’s sports, I really don’t want to listen to ads, or commercials. And so the question is, I have no doubt that your storytelling and it’s not just you, you’re not on an island by yourself, that you got to make it interesting. But is it possible that before when people didn’t think there was another choice, they were going to stay through that commercial break no matter what, right? We weren’t used to, you know, tick tock and Instagram stuff, there wasn’t that instant gratification, people would watch a two three minute commercial break to get to the next segment on the news. Whereas as that changes, if you don’t, if you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t, if you stay with the direct search, which has worked for a long time, yes, in theory be good. But if you have no eyeballs, it doesn’t do any good. If you do something interesting, great, you’re gonna get the eyeballs. But it also means that journey may be different. And just like that guy who gets off stage, so that’s a really funny guy who has a cool commercial, but who do I call from my injury? I’m being facetious. Obviously, you’re trying to do both. But the thought is, with a new form of media or a new approach with it, is it possible now that there’s going to be a connecting of the dots that is needed that before, if people were willing to sit through drudgery, you could just put a name and number into their head, and they were, you know, lemmings enough not to leave?
Adam Warren 27:39
You know, I’ve heard similar things happen with my speaking engagements, because I know when we speak, we’re not supposed to really be about promoting ourselves, we’re supposed to be educating and I’ve some sometimes walked away, as dumbfounded as you have, so I get that part. I think the thing though, that is we’re seeing proof positive, that we may be dealing in a in a continuously finite universe, right? Kids today will probably never be talking about cutting the cord, because they’ll never be a cord to begin with. They’re born in streaming and on demand television content, whether you talk, whether you say television is Peacock, Netflix or YouTube TV, that’s where they’re getting their content. But we’re finding then other places to penetrate them. And as OTT becomes more viable, or lesser brands with lesser brand equity and finance, they will expand into those platforms too. And there will be a pathway to it. It’s just not for everyone yet, in our analysis and opinion, that still leaves radio, radio you’re still really, you know, such a large subset of the class at this point, of the average class is is on your XMs, and Sirius, Sirius XM and still taking in broadcast radio. So we’re still getting a great deal of reach there. We are not as abstract and creative on T- on radio, obviously we don’t have the visual. So we have to be a bit more traditional and explanatory than we are in TV. We have to push a little bit harder for call to action, but not too much because we still don’t want that effect of abandonment, which is worse to me. If you’ve only got a finite audience, you better do all you can to keep ’em, because losing a finite audience doesn’t get any worse than that you’re now you’re now whispering in the wind. And then, of course, I still believe social media and there’s so many types of social media. But there’s enough where you can find the people who are even going to be serious. And at the age of looking for an attorney, you can still find them. At the end of the day, it isn’t that easy. For the people we’re trying to target to escape. We’re gonna find them, we’re gonna be everywhere. We’re, we’re, they’re gonna search, they’re gonna do things. That is, you know, it’s just going to be commonplace. So they may not see 100% of your marketing, but I think they’re going to see enough of a percentage of your marketing, if you put enough chips on the table, that you’re going to get back what you put in.
Seth Price 30:52
That’s awesome. Well, Adam, thank you so much. I’m sure this is the beginning, not the end of the conversation, but
Adam Warren 30:58
I love doing this with you!
Seth Price 31:01
Can’t wait for part three!
Adam Warren 31:03
Part three, Baby! 2024. Let’s do it.
Seth Price 31:05
Very good. Thank you so much.
Adam Warren 31:08
Thanks. Appreciate it.
BluShark Digital 31:11
Thank you for tuning in to the SEO Insider with Seth Price. Be sure to check back next week for fresh insights into building your brand’s online presence. episodes are available to stream directly on BlueShark Digital’s website.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
